Lizard Pack Will Hold Up IF Your Driving Patterns Support It

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mwalsh

Well-known member
Leaf Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
9,781
Location
Garden Grove, CA
Update: See page 6 for some interesting data related to how your driving patterns might affect apparent capacity!

I thought long and hard about simply continuing in the "Lizard Pack Holding Up" thread, but I think it's time to start admitting that all Lizard packs do not appear to be created equal. On the one hand I'm glad I got this one without having to pay for it, but this is looking ever more likely that it will be as bad if not worse than the original pack:

12/30/15: AHr=63.80 CAP=97.26% Hlth=100.00% Hx=100.00% Gids=277. Mileage: 56,588
1/24/16: AHr=63.53 CAP=96.85% Hlth=95.57% Hx=95.57% Gids=278. Mileage: 56,886

2/22/16: AHr=62.55 CAP=95.35% Hlth=93.99% Hx=93.99% SOH=98% Gids=273. Mileage: 57,363
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Seems that way, from the posts in the 2015 battery thread, some perform better than others. Generally the cooler climates outperforming the hotter areas.
Well yeah, that's the way the originals were, too. Brian Brockman's "in an effort" message just turned out to be a small buffer above 100% SOH so that the car could last at best a summer longer in hot weather.

Great going there Nissan. :evil:
 
I wish there wasn't a need for this thread. I, like the rest of you, was counting on these batteries being better. I have a couple of project cars that I was going to convert to leaf guts. Not now, especially when the battery is only lasting 2 years here. I have to decide if there is a way to effectively cool these batteries first. I may have to use a different manufacturers guts with better durability.
 
How is Lizard pack identified and how can you be sure that you have the latest version of Leaf 24kWh pack?
Promises from Dealers are not worth much.
 
Replaced my failing pack in May 2015 with 48,136 miles, lizard pack was stats were:

AHr: 66.54
SOH: 100%
Hx: 101%

Now in Feburary 2016 with 58,686 miles on the odometer after living in much colder climate with the car in a cooled garage:

AHr: 61.67
SOH: 99%
Hx: 92.58%

90% of my charges are L1/L2, I rarely see more than 5 temp bars on the dash. I did notice a dip in the AHr earlier but it seemed to rebound after I drove it to VLBW and back to 100%. Just another point of data for those interested.
 
arnis said:
How is Lizard pack identified and how can you be sure that you have the latest version of Leaf 24kWh pack?
Promises from Dealers are not worth much.

There was a lawsuit in the United States, Klee v Nissan and the remedy was that Nissan had to replace the degraded batteries with lizard or better chemistry. If they don't do it and it becomes known, at the least I would think, would be another round of new batteries and lawsuits.

The packs are sent to the dealers when qualifying at 8 bars and are ordered from the manufacturer at that time and not stockpiled at the dealer. The dealer does nothing in the transaction but the ordering, paperwork, installation and the return of the depleted battery back to the manufacturer. The manufacturer has the responsibility of providing the proper battery for installation.

The name of the thread is Amended Settlement in Klee v. Nissan. That thread explains the lawsuit in detail.
 
mwalsh said:
12/30/15: AHr=63.80 CAP=97.26% Hlth=100.00% Hx=100.00% Gids=277. Mileage: 56,588
1/24/16: AHr=63.53 CAP=96.85% Hlth=95.57% Hx=95.57% Gids=278. Mileage: 56,886
2/22/16: AHr=62.55 CAP=95.35% Hlth=93.99% Hx=93.99% SOH=98% Gids=273. Mileage: 57,363

Actually a slight improvement over last month:

3/19/16: AHr=62.92 CAP=95.91% Hlth=94.76% Hx=94.76% SOH=98% Gids=278. Mileage: 57,841

Needing to go back to my old job yesterday for a meeting and almost fully discharging the pack before recharging it overnight might have made the difference. Hard to say.
 
Plenty of EVs that don't have degradation issues. Nissan just really needs to go with active temperature management like all the low-degrading EV manufacturers.

Not a big worry for me, Tesla Model 3, here I come :D my own pack has held up extremely well but Ohio is a rather mild climate.
 
So far I'm disappointed. Purchased an early 2015 in August of 2014. It registered around 66 AHR at the time and it stayed in Chicago until November 2014 then I shipped it to Phoenix AZ. As it's had a full year in the AZ sun, here are the stats:

11,256 miles
351 L1's @ 3.6kw/h; 0 QC
AHr 57.74
SOH 92%

always garaged and seldom driven. at the current rate I expect to drop the 1st bar by the Fall.

In comparison, we also have a 2013 Leaf in Chicago. It has 36,000 miles and a 90%SOH (2 years older vehicle)
 
I was down to 93% state of health and then all of a sudden my stats came back up. See below in my sig. I still don't think this battery is very lizard-like.
 
Has anyone lost a bar yet on a lizard pack?

I wonder if the degradation on the new pack levels off more than the original. Probably not the case, and Nissan hasn't yet found a magic bullet to avoid TMS, but do we really know for sure?

Reason I ask is I'm thinking about picking up a deal on a 2014 in hopes it would get a pack replacement before it hits the 5 year mark. If the replacement pack got the car to 10-12 years of age even with some reduced range it would have been a success.
 
My lizard batteries are degrading the same as the original. So if your first battery is able to last just under 5 years then the new battery will last the same. I am surprised that your batteries last about 5 years in Florida. So based on your numbers given, will last shy of 10 years. That is what Nissan said to expect when they were promoting the 2011s. So, if you get a free second battery, I can understand that you would be happy that the vehicle made it close to ten years after the free compensation. After that, you could purchase another one, and they would be on the hook for whatever the warranty and density of replacement pack is at that time. Maybe longer than 5 yrs and bigger than 24kWh.
 
Evoforce said:
So if your first battery is able to last just under 5 years then the new battery will last the same. I am surprised that your batteries last about 5 years in Florida.
"Last" is a relative term. On our 2012 we were down 3 bars at the end of three years. I'm unsure of how bad it would have been after two more years, whether the degradation would have accelerated or leveled off at all. Are you thinking we'd have barely made it around the block at the 5 year mark?

I guess if the lizard is no better we'd do well to avoid the used leaf. $10k for a two year old car is no deal if we'll only get 5 or 6 years use out of it and it's worthless after that... and that's assuming we get one free battery replacement, if we get screwed out of that it would have really been a poor decision. Another $15k sentra is looking more and more like the safer choice.
 
Well, the new lizard that was put in about year and a half ago probably will be degraded to 8 bars in another year. The next battery will have to come out of my pocket and will reset that Nissan will have to warranty it for another 5 years effectively costing me $100 per month for the battery at that point.

Pretty much that is what they wanted as battery rent when they were bringing the car to market initially. My other car will need another battery replacement also in 2 years. Is it worth $100 a month per car? For me, it probably is if the rest of the car holds up well. The car itself is nice and maybe we can hope for better replacement batteries in the near future. You know, ones with more range, better warranty, and better durability.

Financing a new Tesla or Bolt would inflate costs much higher as well as the extra insurance cost. Then you have to look at the depreciation on the New car... I don't think my Leaf can depreciate much further. Am I disappointed that I will have to pay $100 per month per battery? Yes, but it is least costly option going forward for the next 6-7 years.

My Finance payment on each car is about $200 month. My insurance is about $60 a month per car. Effectively, I will have invested around $18,000 per car (car+ battery) to last 8 years. That assumes no resale value so it could be less.

I paid only about a third of what it would have cost me to have bought these cars new so I feel that I have made out much better than some. It would be an absolute no brainer to pick up one of these cars now that qualifies for a new free battery under warranty. If I had gotten in the game a year later It would have lost me less money too. The price that they are selling for now is like stealing...
 
Evoforce said:
Well, the new lizard that was put in about year and a half ago probably will be degraded to 8 bars in another year. The next battery will have to come out of my pocket and will reset that Nissan will have to warranty it for another 5 years effectively costing me $100 per month for the battery at that point.

Pretty much that is what they wanted as battery rent when they were bringing the car to market initially. ...
Interesting point.

Only difficulty is if you total the vehicle shortly after buying replacement battery, you have lost the $5,000.

A new form of needed auto insurance :
Prorated replacement of battery if the vehicle is totalled.

Because the new $5,000 battery adds only a tiny fraction of $5,000 to the vehicle market value.
 
TimLee said:
Evoforce said:
Well, the new lizard that was put in about year and a half ago probably will be degraded to 8 bars in another year. The next battery will have to come out of my pocket and will reset that Nissan will have to warranty it for another 5 years effectively costing me $100 per month for the battery at that point.

Pretty much that is what they wanted as battery rent when they were bringing the car to market initially. ...
Interesting point.

Only difficulty is if you total the vehicle shortly after buying replacement battery, you have lost the $5,000.

A new form of needed auto insurance :
Prorated replacement of battery if the vehicle is totalled.

Because the new $5,000 battery adds only a tiny fraction of $5,000 to the vehicle market value.

You are correct with that, but lots of people fix up older vehicles that would never get paid for their reconditioning costs in the event of a "Total" or otherwise in a sale, unless they were able to have it appraised for a higher amount with their insurance company. Especially think of people who have done gas to electric conversions. I have continuously reconditioned my other cars in the past and they may be worthless to others but serve my needs. I am also the type that would buy the vehicle as salvage if the price was right.
 
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