Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-battery-module-costs-1715-60-8-modules-per-car-total-cost-13725/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check out the article above. Nearly $14,000 for an i3 battery pack which has nearly the same capacity as the LEAF. If I owned an i3, I'd be freaked out! This is making the $5500 Leaf battery replacement look like a steal!

Yes, but we've speculated that the LEAF battery must be heavily subsidized by Nissan to make it price out the way it did. I personally think that without the subsidy the cost might well be comparable to that of the i3.

Plus, it may turn out that the I3 battery is far more robust than the Leaf battery and thus much less of a replacement concern until much further down the road when it will no doubt be cheaper...

mwalsh said:

Yes, but we've speculated that the LEAF battery must be heavily subsidized by Nissan to make it price out the way it did. I personally think that without the subsidy the cost might well be comparable to that of the i3.

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<Sarcasm>
Beamer replacement parts more expensive than a typical manufacturers?! I am *shocked*, just *shocked*!
</Sarcasm>

I recall seeing that Nissan's price is on par with their cost to product it. They may not be making any money on it, but I doubt they are taking a loss.

My hunch (only that) is that Nissan is charging $6,000 for a $9,000 battery, but that they're getting much more than $1,000 out of the old batteries - either by selling them to utilities or recycling them. Likely more like $3,000 - $4,000.

So while they're technically "selling at a loss", because you're required to turn in your old battery, they still come out ahead (or at least very close to break-even).

Carlos isn't one to lose money, even for customer goodwill. For proof, you need look no further than the other topics on this forum...

I personally feel that the LEAF pack has to have an unsubsidized cost closer to $11-12,000, but I have no data to back that up other than current pricing per kWh and a hunch.

What they may have done, however, is projected a cost per kWh for a future point in time when folks might actually be considering purchasing packs en masse, and used that as the basis for a replacement cost:

http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/legacy/jan11_feature_electric_cars_p61.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interestingly, when I test-drove an i3, the saleslady in the passenger's seat compared the i3 to the Tesla in regards to battery replacement. "Our i3 battery can be replaced module by module whereas the Tesla battery must be replaced all at once."

I don't know if she was talking out her :!: but it would be interesting if that were true. That would put the modules at $2000 each (1/6th of the battery)?

At least there is a retail replacement price, even if it might be considered high and unfavorable. Remember how long it took us to extract this piece of information from Nissan? Not long ago, they would apparently not sell a replacement battery at any price. Not a good situation either, at least from my perspective. While BMW markets their vehicles as "premium" and prices them accordingly, which may or may not resonate well with everyone, they do offer free maintenance along with a bumper-to-bumper warranty for 48 months and 50,000 miles.

I think this would go a long way to help LEAF drivers as well, and some of this coverage is available through add-on maintenance and extended warranty programs for a price. BMW warrants 70% of the original capacity for the duration of 8 years and 100,000 miles. We have not seen many degraded packs yet, mainly due to the fact that the i3 has not been on the market long enough, but the substantially better capacity warranty would signal higher confidence in the battery pack and its chemistry.

While I cannot say anything intelligent or reasonably quantitative about the SB LiMotive battery pack (joint venture of Bosch and Samsung), BMW stated that the cells have a hard core, which should translate to better longevity when compared to pouch cells. The cells have an aluminum outer shell, much like what we have seen with Nissan, but they are much more rigid. While AESC cells are pouches packed in aluminum canisters, the SB LiMotive cell design resembles a solid brick.

I'm not sure which approach is better, and if there will be any difference between the two approaches. Once again, time will tell.

Another interesting factoid. The i3 has a hidden menu, which one can unlock and access by calculating the code from the last seven digits of the VIN number. This menu has an entry for user-accessible usable battery capacity, which permits the monitoring of remaining battery capacity in kWhs. Without the need to connect something into the OBDII port or having to perform a range test. The pack below shows 6.4% capacity loss from nominal (18.8 kWh) and about 10% loss from commonly seen new capacity (19.5 kWh).

aarond12 said:

Interestingly, when I test-drove an i3, the saleslady in the passenger's seat compared the i3 to the Tesla in regards to battery replacement. "Our i3 battery can be replaced module by module whereas the Tesla battery must be replaced all at once."

I don't know if she was talking out her :!: but it would be interesting if that were true. That would put the modules at $2000 each (1/6th of the battery)?

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I suppose there is some truth to that, say if one module (that is the one always charging with the top 15% of the charge) is bad and you can replace it, but if they degrade equally it doesn't help much. And if 2 modules cost about the same as a Leaf replacement? why bother?

surfingslovak said:

At least there is a retail replacement price, even if it might be considered high and unfavorable. Remember how long it took us to extract this piece of information from Nissan? Not long ago, they would apparently not sell a replacement battery at any price. Not a good situation either, at least from my perspective. While BMW markets their vehicles as "premium" and prices them accordingly, which may or may not resonate well with everyone, they do offer free maintenance along with a bumper-to-bumper warranty for 48 months and 50,000 miles.

I think this would go a long way to help LEAF drivers as well, and some of this coverage is available through add-on maintenance and extended warranty programs for a price. BMW warrants 70% of the original capacity for the duration of 8 years and 100,000 miles. We have not seen many degraded packs yet, mainly due to the fact that the i3 has not been on the market long enough, but the substantially better capacity warranty would signal higher confidence in the battery pack and its chemistry.

While I cannot say anything intelligent or reasonably quantitative about the SB LiMotive battery pack (joint venture of Bosch and Samsung), BMW stated that the cells have a hard core, which should translate to better longevity when compared to pouch cells. The cells an aluminum outer shell, much like what we have seen with Nissan, but they are much more rigid. While AESC cells are pouches packed in aluminum canisters, the SB LiMotive cell design resembles a solid brick.

I'm not sure which approach is better, and if there will be any difference between the two approaches. Once again, time will tell.

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I think the structure of their pack (6 different cells) would make a 8year/100K warranty easier to offer because it may only necessitate swapping a single cell as opposed to the whole pack. I bet that in the future though, we will see LEAF replacement packs swapped with 11 bar rebuilt old ones as well.

tkdbrusco said:

I think the structure of their pack (6 different cells) would make a 8year/100K warranty easier to offer because it may only necessitate swapping a single cell as opposed to the whole pack. I bet that in the future though, we will see LEAF replacement packs swapped with 11 bar rebuilt old ones as well.

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This is the same argument Nissan was pushing early on until reality settled in, and it became clear that the cells were all degrading more or less evenly. There are only select few recorded instances where an individual module was replaced, presumably because a cell developed an anomaly or was losing capacity faster than the rest of the pack. We don't know how well SB LiMotive did in terms of longevity testing. Let's hope that their projections are realistic.

mwalsh said:

What they may have done, however, is projected a cost per kWh for a future point in time when folks might actually be considering purchasing packs en masse, and used that as the basis for a replacement cost:

http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/legacy/jan11_feature_electric_cars_p61.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Bingo. That's what I think too. Also, there probably won't be that many replacements (any data or guesses on this?). So that, plus the return value of the old battery, plus the good will generated by word-of-mouth from the "low" replacement price might have justified a minimal or no markup on the projected cost.

surfingslovak said:

At least there is a retail replacement price, even if it might be considered high and unfavorable. Remember how long it took us to extract this piece of information from Nissan? Not long ago, they would apparently not sell a replacement battery at any price. Not a good situation either, at least from my perspective. While BMW markets their vehicles as "premium" and prices them accordingly, which may or may not resonate well with everyone, they do offer free maintenance along with a bumper-to-bumper warranty for 48 months and 50,000 miles.

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We forget that almost 5 YEARS AGO when the Leaf was introduced, their perceived leadership position in Lithium battery technology was viewed as a big competitive advantage, which no doubt included manufacturing costs. Their trailblazing earned them quite a few "arrows in the back" so that folks like BMW didn't have to. Personally, I think that a $14k replacement pack price is ridiculous, but it is neither manufactured by them nor will be much of a factor in a 4 yr/ 50k mile warranty (many of Nissan's replacement packs will come in that 5th year of warranty).

Stanton said:

(many of Nissan's replacement packs will come in that 5th year of warranty).

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...unless they don't. :lol:

Who cares about the cost difference if i3's battery is superior to Leaf's, and does not degrade the way Leaf's did?

ILETRIC said:

Who cares about the cost difference if i3's battery is superior to Leaf's, and does not degrade the way Leaf's did?

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If I'm having to come up with that much more money, I care..

Doesn't mean it's not worth it.. But I should care.. ;-)

desiv

desiv said:

ILETRIC said:

Who cares about the cost difference if i3's battery is superior to Leaf's, and does not degrade the way Leaf's did?

Click to expand...

If I'm having to come up with that much more money, I care..

Doesn't mean it's not worth it.. But I should care.. ;-)

desiv

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Engineering a product always involves compromises. $8k matters to me. A lot. I can easily buy an ICE car and take care of it for that kind of money. If EVs are going to actually be a successful product and not some sort of forced purchase, balancing cost and other attributes will be important.

bigrob90 said:

desiv said:

ILETRIC said:

Who cares about the cost difference if i3's battery is superior to Leaf's, and does not degrade the way Leaf's did?

Click to expand...

If I'm having to come up with that much more money, I care..

Doesn't mean it's not worth it.. But I should care.. ;-)

desiv

Click to expand...

Engineering a product always involves compromises. $8k matters to me. A lot. I can easily buy an ICE car and take care of it for that kind of money. If EVs are going to actually be a successful product and not some sort of forced purchase, balancing cost and other attributes will be important.

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Yes, of course. But as has been noted above, this is not a price for the replacement battery pack. It's what you get when you add up the modules together. If you recall, the module price quoted for the LEAF was over $600, which would have made the battery pack prohibitively expensive. When comparing Nissan's presumably subsidized battery pack price, it would be good to find the equivalent price tag for the the whole battery pack from BMW.