Charging station at the restaurant, how much use will it get

I eat lunch at a small restaurant most every day and am trying to encourage the owner to install a L2 charging station, something like a Clipper Creek. Am even thinking of subsidizing the installation, just for my own convenience.

My question is, how much benefit will the restaurant owner see? It's a small town, so there will be a bit of publicity and the owner will be thought of as "forward-looking". I know of at least a couple of other Leafs in the area, and the local dealers have sold a few, so publicity might drag a few in.

I've read that Whole Foods had charging stations, and I know that other businesses install them. Does anyone have an idea of the attraction?

Also, how often is the cord chopped off and sold for scrap?

I don't know of any studies to cite here. I'm sure those who manufacture the stations and/or network providers (i.e. ChargePoint) could come up with convincing sounding statistics.... I'd be a bit leery of such claims unless backed up with real data.

I doubt there is a significant payback on them. We have one at a local restaurant (99 Restaurant). I've seen it used (and have used it myself) a few times, but I certainly wouldn't frequent the restaurant just because it has the charger. Perhaps there are others who would do so and I'm just in the minority.

We don't have as many EVs (or charging stations) as they do out in CA so the whole picture is likely very different. I generally don't leave my 'range' in the Leaf and thus always can make it back home (emergency hasn't hit). If I am going to a restaurant and it is in range (round trip) then I won't be influenced much by available charger. I wouldn't (around here) go to a restaurant outside my range relying on a charger at that location as there aren't many good "plan-B" charging stations available. I trust the car, I just don't trust charging infrastructure (too likely to be out of service and/or blocked) and there just aren't enough options.

So what is your market like? Do you have lots of drivers who are willing to rely on public charging to get home? Are folks really going to choose their restaurant based on getting a dollar or so worth of electricity while they dine? (Coupons would likely get a bigger discount...).

Light usage at best. A single charger cannot be relied on to be available, so is of limited use anywhere except at home or if there is a reservation system. A half hour or an hour of charging during lunch is pretty useless for most folks as well. A better option is to put in a bank of chargers in a central location of a shopping/dining area so that you can attract EV owners to come by and be able to reliably charge.

Driving to our local Ikea is 23 miles each way, and has 2 chargers. 2 is not enough to assure I will always be able to charge, so I never go there without enough charge to get home. So what is the point? It only buys be being able to do an extra side trip later on by charging for an hour or so.

I'd eat there.

jdunmyer said:

I eat lunch at a small restaurant most every day and am trying to encourage the owner to install a L2 charging station, something like a Clipper Creek. Am even thinking of subsidizing the installation, just for my own convenience.

My question is, how much benefit will the restaurant owner see? It's a small town, so there will be a bit of publicity and the owner will be thought of as "forward-looking". I know of at least a couple of other Leafs in the area, and the local dealers have sold a few, so publicity might drag a few in.

I've read that Whole Foods had charging stations, and I know that other businesses install them. Does anyone have an idea of the attraction?

Also, how often is the cord chopped off and sold for scrap?

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Public EV charging at something like a restaurant needs to be thought of like free paved parking, i.e. an advertising cost. The problem is, unless it's a famous, well-publicized restaurant that can attract customers from the surrounding region or attracts out of town tourists, a pay EVSE makes little sense, as local customers will just charge at home for less. So the owner will be subsidizing the EVSE, one way or another.

In my area all of the Carl's Jr have at least 3 Blink stations. I have seen a Leaf charging only once. Since they are in my neighborhood I will never charge there. It is cheaper to charge at home.

GlennD said:

In my area all of the Carl's Jr have at least 3 Blink stations. I have seen a Leaf charging only once. Since they are in my neighborhood I will never charge there. It is cheaper to charge at home.

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They're at Mickey D's around here, and equally unused. The city also installed a whole bunch of Blink L2s to go along with the QC, but as I pointed out to them, we aren't a 'destination' city for anyone and have nothing unique that will have people coming from out of town to eat, shop etc. We've got a multiplex, but there are ones just like it 10 miles in any direction, so why would anyone bother; the same stores in the same malls ditto. We've got restaurants, but nothing upscale or unusual that will get people traveling here for the food. Cultural events are limited. The sole realistic use of the EVSEs put in at the City parking structure downtown is charging for people who can't do so at home, but with the recent Blink rate hikes gas is cheaper, losing all the PHEVs and any BEV that's got an option.

If it is free people will use it. Might even increase sales a small amount.
Otherwise we mostly just charge at home.

I disagree that an hour of charging is useless. That's 35 miles! one hour of charging would make me able to run a couple extra errands on a trip that I normally wouldn't be able to do. Might not make much money, but it's a really good service to provide to your customers.

johnrhansen said:

I disagree that an hour of charging is useless. That's 35 miles! one hour of charging would make me able to run a couple extra errands on a trip that I normally wouldn't be able to do. Might not make much money, but it's a really good service to provide to your customers.

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Unfortunately it is a "really good service" with a high fixed cost relative to other things. For example, consider a restaurant putting in a station paying $5,000 to do so (I think that is a low estimate of cost). Now, it may bring in a few customers. What if, instead of putting in the charger, the restaurant decided to give a free soda to each customer - assuming $1 each in lost revenue that could affect 5000 customers - I expect more would go there for a free drink than to charge eh? That's not even taking into consideration the cost of power if/when someone does charge....

johnrhansen said:

I disagree that an hour of charging is useless. That's 35 miles! one hour of charging would make me able to run a couple extra errands on a trip that I normally wouldn't be able to do. Might not make much money, but it's a really good service to provide to your customers.

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what car gets 35MPH from an L2?

apvbguy said:

johnrhansen said:

I disagree that an hour of charging is useless. That's 35 miles! one hour of charging would make me able to run a couple extra errands on a trip that I normally wouldn't be able to do. Might not make much money, but it's a really good service to provide to your customers.

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what car gets 35MPH from an L2?

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1 hour at 6kW (charger output) and 3.2 miles per kW is at best 19.2 miles.

Still worth it if I'm having lunch, but no 35 miles.

Thanks for all your thoughts, they're much appreciated!

An EVSE at the restaurant would sometimes be useful for me, as it'd save a 10-mile trip home & back, plus the time, as I'm spending an hour at lunch anyway.

The restaurant is located in what was an old schoolhouse that now houses about 25 businesses, from a beauty shop to a newspaper office, so there's a bit more draw/traffic than just the eatery.

Mainly, I think it'd be cool to have it available in our little town, just outside Toledo, OH.

Exactly. One charger anywhere is all but useless as you can never depend on it. I basically ignore them in my trip planning.

Moof said:

Light usage at best. A single charger cannot be relied on to be available, so is of limited use anywhere except at home or if there is a reservation system. A half hour or an hour of charging during lunch is pretty useless for most folks as well. A better option is to put in a bank of chargers in a central location of a shopping/dining area so that you can attract EV owners to come by and be able to reliably charge.

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Exactly. One charger anywhere is all but useless as you can never depend on it. I basically ignore them in my trip planning.

Moof wrote:
Light usage at best. A single charger cannot be relied on to be available, so is of limited use anywhere except at home or if there is a reservation system. A half hour or an hour of charging during lunch is pretty useless for most folks as well. A better option is to put in a bank of chargers in a central location of a shopping/dining area so that you can attract EV owners to come by and be able to reliably charge.

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My thinking is "you have to start somewhere". You folks in California, where there's lots of electric cars, can opine about what we out here in flyover country 'should' have, but that isn't the way it is. To give you an idea of the desert situation we're in, this map: http://www.chademo.com/wp/usmap/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; shows the nearest DCQC station for me is Chicago, about 250 miles away. There are none shown in either Michigan or Ohio. I owned my Leaf for 9 months before seeing my first one in the wild, and the local dealers don't seem to be much interested in stocking them. The single exception is the Ann Arbor, MI dealer, he's the only one within 40 miles with any in stock at the moment. My dealer in Toledo has had 3 or 4 on the lot in the past 10 months, and those have been gone for several months.

I do know what you mean about being unable to depend on public chargers: this past Summer, I was going to Bowling Green, OH, which is about the limit of my range (round trip). So, I thought that I'd stop at Thayer Nissan, just north of B.G. and pick up a few kilowatts. Called ahead to verify its operation and availability and was assured that I'd be good to go. When I arrived, the circuit breaker was turned off, inside the building. The first saleswoman who came out told me, "Well, we can't let just anybody charge here!" I felt like I was being accused of thievery. Another sales lady came out, happened to be the one I spoke to on the phone the day before, she explained to the first that, yes, I should be allowed to charge, and they got the breaker turned on. The 2 of them discussed things, and agreed that they couldn't remember the last time the store had a Leaf in stock or sold one. This is in a university town, populated by the type of people who are most likely to buy EVs, in fact the saleslady told me that their Toyota store a quarter-mile down the road was extremely successful with the Prius.

FWIW: My dealer, Yark Nissan in Toledo has 2 L2 EVSEs outside, and one is operational and always accessible.

Anyway, I'm willing to pay 100% of the cost; I think it should be doable for $2000.00 or less if their electrical service is suitable. The meter is immediately adjacent to where the thing should be mounted, IE: hung on the wall, so if a circuit is available, it should be very easy.

I will support the business and go eat there just for having it. I don't care how many mouse I get from the charge while I'm there. Even more I will tell everybody through word-of-mouth.

Ian B

I tend to support businesses that offer free charging, but it's not something that has an apparent ROI, and frankly, all of the other indirect returns could probably be achieved with lower costs elsewhere.

Business owners should do it because they want to. They will not see a return on their investment, that's almost guaranteed.

I free, it will attract people who come to nearby businesses, or who simply come to charge. Folks nearby may want to park there overnight, or at least stop in for a while in the evening to charge for free.

This will likely be followed by people complaining that others are blocking it or hogging it by not moving their car when it is up to xx percent (so they can charge for free).

The ones at the whole foods around here cost $$$ - they are fairly expensive to use.

Look up "tragedy of the commons".

KillaWhat said:

apvbguy said:

what car gets 35MPH from an L2?

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1 hour at 6kW (charger output) and 3.2 miles per kW is at best 19.2 miles.

Still worth it if I'm having lunch, but no 35 miles.

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Not to knock your driving, but in the summer I can easily pull out 5 miles per kW, which would be 30 miles. If you assume that your "hour" isn't exactly 60 minutes but a little over that, and you get even slightly better energy efficiency than me (e.g., you live in a less hilly area) then 35 miles is a perfectly reasonable estimate.

jdunmyer said:

Anyway, I'm willing to pay 100% of the cost; I think it should be doable for $2000.00 or less if their electrical service is suitable. The meter is immediately adjacent to where the thing should be mounted, IE: hung on the wall, so if a circuit is available, it should be very easy.

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I offered the same thing to a winery in town, similar situation (panel inside wall right next to parking spot, literally 2 ft of wire, circuit breaker, and a HCS-60 ClipperCreek mounted on the wall) and I estimated I could get the whole thing done for less than $1500, which I agreed to pay. No dice. This would have guaranteed multiple Teslas stopping since the winery was RIGHT NEXT TO THE HIGHWAY, 120 mi from the nearest SuperCharger. Some people just don't understand.