Leaf now or Leaf later... Ugh!

I decided it was the right time to jump in and feel really good about my choice! Ended up buying a white 2015 SL Leaf with premium package for $32100 ~ 15% below msrp if you dont include the destination fee in the msrp. If you include that its 17% below msrp. Woot!


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I realize I need to make this decision myself, but I am soo stuck in the middle I am hoping some comments can sway me one direction or give me input on the best option...

I love the idea of EVs (mostly the convenience of cheap miles and no gas stations, tbh I am not into the environmental stuff so much, not that I don't like the environment - just it's not a factor for buying), the technology in the leaf, the added features my current car doesn't have (bluetooth music streaming is a big one, damn Honda!!), I love so much about EVs, but I don't own one. I have range anxiety already! I've been wanting to wait until a 100+ mile version came out. My commute is 35 miles RT which I know isn't even much...

I would love a new car...though mine is only 5 years old. The range thing bugs me and I am worried about Nissan releasing their longer range version with the redesign in the next couple years that may/will totally kill the value of the current Leaf. Plus, Tesla's Model 3 will be released 2017 or 2018 if delayed...

I currently own my car, so no payments. I could lease but I am not sure leasing makes financial sense? I live in CO where we good very good tax credits for buying and I think decent for leasing still. I would certainly save money on gas, but I'd need to keep it for like 5+ years I think to get my money's worth? I spend around $1750 a year for gas.

At what price would purchasing be a good deal? Does leasing ever really make sense or is it just throwing away money? What price lease would be good?

The Leaf I am currently looking at is a 2015 SL with Bose... I had talked them down to 33k for a 2014 SL with no Bose, but I think I could get into the 2015 SL with Bose it for 34k. Not sure that is even a good deal.


Any thoughts?

What would your lease cost be? Maybe you would save enough money on gas to justify leasing.

JayFiveAlive said:

I have range anxiety already! I've been wanting to wait until a 100+ mile version came out.

[snip]

The range thing bugs me and I am worried about Nissan releasing their longer range version with the redesign in the next couple years that may/will totally kill the value of the current Leaf. Plus, Tesla's Model 3 will be released 2017 or 2018 if delayed...

Click to expand...

Based on your concerns, I don't think you are ready for a Leaf. I have had mine for 3 years, rarely use the old ICE vehicle, but I knew what my needs/concerns were and they didn't include the above.

But when the new models come out or the new Tesla comes out, they too will be working on even newer versions. Do you wait for those too? By then will the federal and state tax credits still be available?

The Leaf is a throwaway car IMHO. Buy a brand new one, get $13.5K back in cash thanks to rebates and drive it until it no longer makes the commute work. Then sell it to someone who doesn't need to drive 35miles one way and buy your Tesla. A brand new car, with all the whiz-bang features of the Leaf, quietness, convenience, for $16K is hard to find anywhere else. You will easily get 70+ miles out of a new Leaf at highway speeds, some say 80+.

35 miles round trip is exactly what the Leaf was designed for. And if you have a generic wall outlet at work, and you are there for 8 hours a day, then you can add 20+ miles back into the car while you work.

Go buy a Leaf, and wait for the next generation while you drive around your temporary Leaf.

I envision resale to be horrible for the Leaf, but it is actually perfect for my intentions. If I get a kid and they start driving, I would rather give them a hooptie EV with a 30 mile range than an ICE for who knows what shenanigans.

Stoaty said:

JayFiveAlive said:

I have range anxiety already! I've been wanting to wait until a 100+ mile version came out.
[snip]
The range thing bugs me and I am worried about Nissan releasing their longer range version with the redesign in the next couple years that may/will totally kill the value of the current Leaf. Plus, Tesla's Model 3 will be released 2017 or 2018 if delayed...

Click to expand...

Based on your concerns, I don't think you are ready for a Leaf. I have had mine for 3 years, rarely use the old ICE vehicle, but I knew what my needs/concerns were and they didn't include the above.

Click to expand...

If you just can't get past your range anxiety, then it's probably better to wait.

On the other hand, running low on charge in an EV is generally a much more predictable experience than running low on gasoline in an ICE. I've never driven an ICE that has a gas gauge anywhere near as accurate as the SOC (state of charge) number on a LEAF. Part of the anxiety of running low on gas (it's happened to me on a few rural Interstates) is that you don't quite know how much you have left.

Also, if you pull into the driveway at the end of a long day and your EV's charge happens to be low, it's no big deal. You don't have to worry about having to stop for gas the next morning, because your "tank" will be full in the morning.

Boulder's climate is relatively friendly for EV batteries (better than, say, Phoenix), Colorado appears to have generous EV incentives, and the LEAF is nice for driving in the mountains when you feel like it. The downside, of course, is that it's not great for anything but short day trips. Climbing 1000 feet requires an extra roughly 1.5 kWh of energy on top of driving the same distance on the flats.

Important considerations:

Resale value will likely suck, especially when 100+ mile EVs come on the scene. Leasing protects you from this since the residual value is determined prior to point of sale. If things aren't as bad, you can always buy out your lease for a small fee.

The battery will degrade, and the warranty likely won't cover a replacement. In Michigan, my battery will probably reach EOL at 7 years. I've already lost 15% in a little over 2 years, 30,000 miles. Factor in the cost of a replacement battery if you are in it for the long haul.

Also, you need to consider degradation of range into your driving requirements. Can you reach your destination and back with a battery that has lost 30% of its capacity? If not, you might want to reconsider buying.

There will always be something better in a few years. A short lease (2 years) is a great option, and it gives you 2 years to decide whether you want to buy it.

You all rock, thank you so much for the replies! I am requesting a 2 year lease for the 2015 from my dealer now, but here is what I was given for the 2014 a few months back, I am not sure if even a good deal:

36 month lease - 386 a month with $1037 down

MSRP: 37,240
Savings: 1,227
Rebate: 8,625
Cap cost: 36,013
Sales tax: 965
Dealer/State fee: 556.95
Total price: 37535.11
Net residual: 15,640
Drive off: $9661

Oops and almost forgot to mention the dealer apparently doesn't take any tax incentives for the lease- they leave it to us to file for and receive.

JayFiveAlive said:

You all rock, thank you so much for the replies! I am requesting a 2 year lease for the 2015 from my dealer now, but here is what I was given for the 2014 a few months back, I am not sure if even a good deal:

36 month lease - 386 a month with $1037 down

MSRP: 37,240
Savings: 1,227
Rebate: 8,625
Cap cost: 36,013
Sales tax: 965
Dealer/State fee: 556.95
Total price: 37535.11
Net residual: 15,640
Drive off: $9661

Click to expand...

MSRP seems very high. Rebate seems low, but that's on owning not leasing.

If the car is truly $37K without negotiating the price, then subtract $7500 federal and $6000 state and you are left with $23.5K

If you finance all but $1037 at 1.9% interest for 36 months you are looking at $640/mo. If the leaf then sells for $12K 3 years from now (who knows?!) you are out of pocket $11K.

If you lease, then 36 months from now you will have paid $13.9K in essentially renting a car. You get nothing back. It would appear that the break even point would be if the Leaf only sold for $9K in 3 years time. Possible I suppose...

And if you keep the car for longer than 3 years, it doesn't make any sense to lease. With Colorado having excellent tax credits for EV's you might as well buy. And then you can also do whatever you want to the car and not have to worry about getting a bill for a few thousand dollars at the end of the lease for all those little dings and such that you will inevitably get through 3 years of driving in Colorado.

It does seem like more geared toward purchase than price - here is the purchase offer for the exact same car:

MSRP: 36,215
Savings: 1,227
Rebate: 2,500
Adj. sale price: 32,488
Sales tax: 1703
Theft code plus: 299
filing fee: 27.20
Doc fee: 549.75
Total 35067 - $2000 for additional rebates = $33067 - tax rebates = 19,567

0% APR for 60 months for financing.

JayFiveAlive said:

It does seem like more geared toward purchase than price - here is the purchase offer for the exact same car:

MSRP: 36,215
Savings: 1,227
Rebate: 2,500
Adj. sale price: 32,488
Sales tax: 1703
Theft code plus: 299
filing fee: 27.20
Doc fee: 549.75
Total 35067 - $2000 for additional rebates = $33067 - tax rebates = 19,567

0% APR for 60 months for financing.

Click to expand...

How is the MSRP different on the exact same car?! "Theft code plus"? Sounds like typical dealer markup crap. Also it looks like you are getting no real discount on the vehicle.

I was able to negotiate a few thousand off the price of mine in addition to everything else down here in Colorado Springs.

Hmmmm according to TrueCar it's considered a better than average deal, but it sure doesn't sound good to me ha. I partly wonder if it's cause Boulder is too popular for EVs so they charge more. I will see if I can get better pricing, but that is really good to know about yours in CO Springs. The last car I bought was through a friend of a dealer and it was straight dealer price (basically as a favor for my friend), so I didn't negotiate anything. Glad they have forums like this to find out what is a good/bad deal. Cheers!

Dealer got back to me with 2 offers:


2015 Nissan Leaf SL with Premium package-

Leasing for 24 months and 12k miles a year would be $1800 down + 1st payment + Taxes. Monthly payment will be $351+tax.

Purchase exact same car: $32.100 +fees + taxes.

Lease it. Get experience and enjoy the EV driving for 3 years. Then come 2017 you have options.

JayFiveAlive said:

...I would love a new car...though mine is only 5 years old. The range thing bugs me and I am worried about Nissan releasing their longer range version with the redesign in the next couple years that may/will totally kill the value of the current Leaf. Plus, Tesla's Model 3 will be released 2017 or 2018 if delayed...

Click to expand...

If you are really concerned about this you should wait or lease, but definitely not buy.

I currently own my car, so no payments. I could lease but I am not sure leasing makes financial sense? I live in CO where we good very good tax credits for buying and I think decent for leasing still. I would certainly save money on gas, but I'd need to keep it for like 5+ years I think to get my money's worth? I spend around $1750 a year for gas.

Click to expand...

The Colorado tax credit for leased cars is considerably reduced from what it is for purchased cars. The federal tax credit will be applied to the lease as part of the down payment; the state tax credit you will apply for on your tax return (and it is refundable, so not dependent on how much you pay in state taxes). If a dealer says something different, you need make sure you understand what they are trying to say or pick another dealer.

At what price would purchasing be a good deal? Does leasing ever really make sense or is it just throwing away money? What price lease would be good?...

Click to expand...

The lease prices you have been quoted strike me as being rather high compared to what others report here. But that may be because 2015 models aren't discounted much yet. Nevertheless, before accepting a deal from a local dealer, you should contact all the dealers from Fort Collins to Colorado Springs via e-mail and see what they will offer for the package you want. There are threads here about leasing terms and strategies: do your homework before crossing swords with a car dealer.

Yes you should lease, despite not getting much of a state tax credit, because it will allow you to trade up to a longer range EV in the future with little hassle. The current LEAF is ideal for a 35 mile (RT) commute. Just understand that it is a local commuting car. You will NOT be able to drive it to Vail or someplace like that. Eldora, probably yes. Keystone, probably not. As long as you have an ICE car as a backup you can just use the LEAF for local driving, with no range anxiety issues.

— former 14+ year Gunbarrel resident

JayFiveAlive said:

...My commute is 35 miles RT which I know isn't even much...
Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

I'd skip the new EV and ride instead! That's bicycling chump change in Boulder. I used to average 200 mi/wk when I was there, but most of it was recreational.

JayFiveAlive said:

You all rock, thank you so much for the replies! I am requesting a 2 year lease for the 2015 from my dealer now, but here is what I was given for the 2014 a few months back, I am not sure if even a good deal:

36 month lease - 386 a month with $1037 down

MSRP: 37,240
Savings: 1,227
Rebate: 8,625
Cap cost: 36,013
Sales tax: 965
Dealer/State fee: 556.95
Total price: 37535.11
Net residual: 15,640
Drive off: $9661

Oops and almost forgot to mention the dealer apparently doesn't take any tax incentives for the lease- they leave it to us to file for and receive.

Click to expand...

Can you get your dealer to clarify what "rebate" is and why it's not showing up as a cap cost reduction? I'm not able to get these figures to add up in my lease calculator. This tells me they are probably inflating the money factor, which is a common sleazeball move on the part of dealerships.

http://www.theautoleasecalculator.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MSRP: $37240 (looks like this is premium package plus mud flaps, mats, etc... it's a little high)
Destination: $850
Total MSRP: $38090
Selling Price: $36013 (MSRP minus "savings")
Acquisition: $595
Down Payment: $1037
Reductions: $8625 ("rebate", which I assume includes Nissan's Lease Cash / Rebate of $7500)
Cap adjustment: $28071
Lease Term: 36 Months
State tax: 2.9%
Residual: 43%
Money Factor: 0.00068 (based on tier 0 credit, requires 740+ credit score)

Monthly Payment: $365.32 including finance and tax, with $1037 down.

I didn't compute/compare what is due at signing. It will be tax on your down payment and cap reductions, plus down payment, plus document fees, plus state and local license/title/registration fees.

Make sure you identify document fees, license fees, title fees, registration fees, and other fees- and negotiate down the selling price for any non-government fees.

Also, I think the dealer can do better than $1227 off MSRP on an SL. You're buying a loaded top trim car with dealer accessories. If I were in your shoes, I would push for another $800 off MSRP and target your price at $35,200ish (pre tax, pre rebate, pre destination). Or I would tell them to remove dealer added accessories.

With your commute I'd be looking at a used low-miles 2011. Just spoke with someone who got a used 2011 2-bar looser SL with 30k miles for $13.5k. He was pretty happy, paid half the price from new after incentives and will likely loose 2 more bars before the warranty runs out, so a new pack is looming.

JayFiveAlive said:

Dealer got back to me with 2 offers...

Click to expand...

Shop around with different dealers. Call them or visit there website and look under the new incentives category. Bay area dealers will beat that deal easily and ship you the car.

The jaw-dropping item for me is the doc fee of $549.75! Do you have to bend over for just the sales manager, or is this a gang-bang? Tell them what they can do with that ridiculous doc fee and any other assorted non-governmental fees they try to add on. Or, if you're just too polite, get quotes from multiple dealers as recommended by other posters.

That aside, I think either a short lease or waiting is the way to go. Is this going to be your sole car? If so, how often do you take road trips? Drive up to Rocky Mountain NP? Have to deal with single digit cold and/or unplowed streets? In winter, a used LEAF with a degraded battery could be a problem for a 35 mile round-trip commute without charging. I'd wait for something with longer range given my needs, but you have to decide based on your own circumstances. And I'd get a BEV with a TMS that will heat the battery, because you're going to need it - the LEAF only heats the battery enough to protect it from freezing, not enough to maintain capacity. You might want to consider waiting to see if the Kia Soul will be available in Colorado (just coastal states initially), and see if that will work for you.

My ocean blue 2011 was turned in at end of lease to Fontana Nissan early March. It remains for sale at a reduced price at Green Eyed Motors, in Boulder, Colorado. It is the one with California diamond lane stickers, and side moldings. Never in an accident, but definite range drop since it was new. They have come down a couple grand from their original asking price. If you qualify for the state incentive, your actual price is between $11k and $12k, I believe. It is interesting to be able to find your old car, googling the VIN. I suspect many of the lease returns end up in Colorado, due to their more liberal incentive, which applies to new or used EV's.