Poll : $100 a month replacement offer

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

What is your reaction to the about $100 a month replacement offer ?

  • I like the rental deal

    Votes: 20 5.6%
  • I don't mind a rental deal, but need more details

    Votes: 57 16.0%
  • I don't mind a rental deal, but need an exit price

    Votes: 60 16.8%
  • I don't want a rental deal, I want a buy price

    Votes: 198 55.5%
  • I'm going back to ICE !

    Votes: 22 6.2%

  • Total voters
    357
I'm an edge case - high mileage, long lease in a hot climate - and it might make sense for me. I need more details, though.
 
At 12,000 miles per year and expecting a long time for my battery to degrade to 70% (maybe 8 years),
this rental deal as the only replacement option would be very bad for me. Paying essentially $9600 for a capacity upgrade from 70% to 100% destroys any economic sense the Leaf will make.

I was hoping to own and use this car for a very long time, i.e. +15 years, which means I was expecting to buy one replacement battery. Now it seems we have to put our hopes on an aftermarket solution.
 
klapauzius said:
I was hoping to own and use this car for a very long time, i.e. +15 years, which means I was expecting to buy one replacement battery. Now it seems we have to put our hopes on an aftermarket solution.
My guess is that in 6-7 years when the price has come down Nissan will sell you a replacement pack (I may need to buy one too, eventually, but probably not for about 10 years).
 
Since I'm leasing I don't have a dog in this fight, but was toying with the idea of buying it out at the end of the lease depending on the outcome of this, and this news has pretty much wiped out any chance of that. The Leaf has been an interesting experience but it cost me dearly because I was an early adopter. Frankly an inexpensive gas car like a mazda 3 is starting to look pretty appealing, and let others carry the EV banner.
 
klapauzius said:
At 12,000 miles per year and expecting a long time for my battery to degrade to 70% (maybe 8 years),
this rental deal as the only replacement option would be very bad for me. Paying essentially $9600 for a capacity upgrade from 70% to 100% destroys any economic sense the Leaf will make.

I was hoping to own and use this car for a very long time, i.e. +15 years, which means I was expecting to buy one replacement battery. Now it seems we have to put our hopes on an aftermarket solution.

then wait 8 years THEN sign up for the lease program!
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Since I'm leasing I don't have a dog in this fight, but was toying with the idea of buying it out at the end of the lease depending on the outcome of this, and this news has pretty much wiped out any chance of that. The Leaf has been an interesting experience but it cost me dearly because I was an early adopter. Frankly an inexpensive gas car like a mazda 3 is starting to look pretty appealing, and let others carry the EV banner.

wow, i cannot believe you are serious about what you said. the true cost of burning gasoline is so much more than the cost of any battery. i have no idea how old you are but the changing evironment and the debate on its causes i have followed for decades and its beginning to become obvious that the "facts" we have now have been well known in the scientific community for years and that all the climate change debunkers were pretty much bought off by Big Oil.

On Earth Day 2012 I met the Asst. Director for the Dept of Revenue for WA State. He advocated green transportation as a way to save the State. He claimed that if everyone ditched their cars the state could save enough money from not buying oil to send every student in the state to college.

i found his statement to be a bit of a stretch and there are simply too many logistical issues with commerce and transportation of goods thru the state (bordering Canada means a LOT of stuff travels our roads by truck and rail) but at least he backed up his statement by riding a bicycle rain or shine (in WA it was MOSTLY rain!) every workday THIRTY ONE MILES ONE WAY!
 
You should put a dollar figure on this.. If a replacement battery ends up costing $2000 then nobody is going to take the rental deal.. If the replacement cost is $12,000 then I bet there are tons of takers.. I'm voting "like" I suppose because I'm assuming the replacement pack cost will be comparatively prohibitive..
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
Since I'm leasing I don't have a dog in this fight, but was toying with the idea of buying it out at the end of the lease depending on the outcome of this, and this news has pretty much wiped out any chance of that. The Leaf has been an interesting experience but it cost me dearly because I was an early adopter. Frankly an inexpensive gas car like a mazda 3 is starting to look pretty appealing, and let others carry the EV banner.

wow, i cannot believe you are serious about what you said. the true cost of burning gasoline is so much more than the cost of any battery. i have no idea how old you are but the changing evironment and the debate on its causes i have followed for decades and its beginning to become obvious that the "facts" we have now have been well known in the scientific community for years and that all the climate change debunkers were pretty much bought off by Big Oil.

And even if you believe that climate change is a myth, you can't deny that our thirst for oil has side effects on our foreign policy, and how we have to stay friendly to Saudi Arabia (a country not particularly well known for its human rights record) and tolerate the rantings of the late Hugo Chavez and to a lesser extent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. By driving my EV, I know I am contributing far less to that than I once did.
 
The problem with that whole argument is that it is overly simplistic and petroleum is used for SO many other things than gasoline that, even if every gas car disappeared today, we would still be heavily dependent on it, even just to manufacture the EV gas vehicle replacements and components...

RonDawg said:
And even if you believe that climate change is a myth, you can't deny that our thirst for oil has side effects on our foreign policy, and how we have to stay friendly to Saudi Arabia (a country not particularly well known for its human rights record) and tolerate the rantings of the late Hugo Chavez and to a lesser extent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. By driving my EV, I know I am contributing far less to that than I once did.
 
But not having to power your car with it means you use less of the stuff, meaning you have to import less of the stuff from countries that will happily stab us in the back while selling us their oil.

TomT said:
The problem with that whole argument is that it is overly simplistic and petroleum is used for SO many other things than gasoline that, even if every gas car disappeared today, we would still be heavily dependent on it, even just to manufacture the EV gas vehicle replacements and components...

RonDawg said:
And even if you believe that climate change is a myth, you can't deny that our thirst for oil has side effects on our foreign policy, and how we have to stay friendly to Saudi Arabia (a country not particularly well known for its human rights record) and tolerate the rantings of the late Hugo Chavez and to a lesser extent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. By driving my EV, I know I am contributing far less to that than I once did.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
klapauzius said:
At 12,000 miles per year and expecting a long time for my battery to degrade to 70% (maybe 8 years),
this rental deal as the only replacement option would be very bad for me. Paying essentially $9600 for a capacity upgrade from 70% to 100% destroys any economic sense the Leaf will make.

I was hoping to own and use this car for a very long time, i.e. +15 years, which means I was expecting to buy one replacement battery. Now it seems we have to put our hopes on an aftermarket solution.

then wait 8 years THEN sign up for the lease program!

OK, do the math:
After 8 years (so in 2019) I expect the capacity of my original battery to fall below the usability threshold for me and I will need a fresh pack.

So then I rent for $100 a month for the next 8 years or $9600 AND I loose my 70% capacity battery in the process which has considerable value (and for which I paid, BTW)...So essentially I am forced to "rent" my own 8 year old car now at a ridiculous monthly cost.

And I cannot sell it, because nobody would buy an EV with limited range (there will be better batteries by then for NEW EVs) and this monthly cost to operate.

This effectively means, that I have to pay the equivalent of $18k ($9600 for the rent for 8 years + 24*$500 * .7 assuming 2011 $/kWH prices for my 70% battery) for my $35k car after 8 years to keep it going for another 8 years.

Sorry, this program makes no sense whatsoever for people like me who are likely not going to burn through the battery in 2-3 years.

p.s:

Trashing cars after 8 years of use is also NOT very friendly to the environment.
 
leaf-lease.pngDo the math is a good suggestion.
Here is why I think the $100 per month battery rental is bad for the customer. Here is a graph of the cost of a lease for the entire car. This graph was done by evnow see 2013 Nissan Leaf Lease Information thread.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=11245" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you can lease (rent) the entire car for 117 a month why is renting just the battery pack for 100 per month a good deal ?
 
klapauzius said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
klapauzius said:
At 12,000 miles per year and expecting a long time for my battery to degrade to 70% (maybe 8 years),
this rental deal as the only replacement option would be very bad for me. Paying essentially $9600 for a capacity upgrade from 70% to 100% destroys any economic sense the Leaf will make.

I was hoping to own and use this car for a very long time, i.e. +15 years, which means I was expecting to buy one replacement battery. Now it seems we have to put our hopes on an aftermarket solution.

then wait 8 years THEN sign up for the lease program!

OK, do the math:
After 8 years (so in 2019) I expect the capacity of my original battery to fall below the usability threshold for me and I will need a fresh pack.

So then I rent for $100 a month for the next 8 years or $9600 AND I loose my 70% capacity battery in the process which has considerable value (and for which I paid, BTW)...So essentially I am forced to "rent" my own 8 year old car now at a ridiculous monthly cost.

And I cannot sell it, because nobody would buy an EV with limited range (there will be better batteries by then for NEW EVs) and this monthly cost to operate.

This effectively means, that I have to pay the equivalent of $18k ($9600 for the rent for 8 years + 24*$500 * .7 assuming 2011 $/kWH prices for my 70% battery) for my $35k car after 8 years to keep it going for another 8 years.

Sorry, this program makes no sense whatsoever for people like me who are likely not going to burn through the battery in 2-3 years.

p.s:

Trashing cars after 8 years of use is also NOT very friendly to the environment.

ok, I am with you BUT we need to do some more math! you contend that the OEM battery is being given up without compensation but also contend that the lease battery will cost you SIGNIFICANTLY less than the original cost of the OEM battery right?

ok, since we can only speculate on how much the lease program will cost in 8 years we can only do the same with the value of a new battery pack as well which means we can both take this "math" anyway we want so lets not. we assume everything stays the same for 8 years.

so we rectified the notion that we gave away our OEM battery and got nothing in return correct? now if we look at degradation of value in a used item, the first thing we notice is it is not linear. the value drops MUCH faster at first meaning a battery needed for transportation does not become valueless when its capacity wont move the car. It becomes valueless when it no longer fills the need for which it was intended. But it also makes no sense to wait until that point to take action so we can probably say a 70% capacity battery might be worth 50% of its new value.

so if buying a battery today, we might pay more than $17,000 which is what a Focus EV driver would pay today for a smaller pack. but the degraded battery is worth half that so we pay$8500. are you ok with that?? guessing you are not even ok with HALF that and you would not be alone.

but the current state of technology gives Nissan no choice. The volumes have not risen enough, the technology has not progressed enough so a lease is essentially buying Nissan more time to get a reasonable solution. nothing more, nothing less and I know you might find this hard to swallow but they did this on the hope of selling several more LEAFs (or some sort of EV) in the future.

burning a customer on an outrageous battery purchase right now would probably make your future loyalty a tought thing to maintain
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
ok, I am with you BUT we need to do some more math! you contend that the OEM battery is being given up without compensation but also contend that the lease battery will cost you SIGNIFICANTLY less than the original cost of the OEM battery right?

ok, since we can only speculate on how much the lease program will cost in 8 years we can only do the same with the value of a new battery pack as well which means we can both take this "math" anyway we want so lets not. we assume everything stays the same for 8 years.

so we rectified the notion that we gave away our OEM battery and got nothing in return correct? now if we look at degradation of value in a used item, the first thing we notice is it is not linear. the value drops MUCH faster at first meaning a battery needed for transportation does not become valueless when its capacity wont move the car. It becomes valueless when it no longer fills the need for which it was intended. But it also makes no sense to wait until that point to take action so we can probably say a 70% capacity battery might be worth 50% of its new value.

so if buying a battery today, we might pay more than $17,000 which is what a Focus EV driver would pay today for a smaller pack. but the degraded battery is worth half that so we pay$8500. are you ok with that?? guessing you are not even ok with HALF that and you would not be alone.

but the current state of technology gives Nissan no choice. The volumes have not risen enough, the technology has not progressed enough so a lease is essentially buying Nissan more time to get a reasonable solution. nothing more, nothing less and I know you might find this hard to swallow but they did this on the hope of selling several more LEAFs (or some sort of EV) in the future.

burning a customer on an outrageous battery purchase right now would probably make your future loyalty a tought thing to maintain


Lets go over this again:

It appears I give away my OEM battery and I get a $9600 new battery for say 8 years in return. That is based on Nissan's information

I will take your numbers and assume that my OEM battery at 70% is worth $8500.

So, if I add up these numbers to compute the total cost to keep 8 year old Leaf going for another 8 years, according to Nissan's current plans, this would amount to $18100 (8 years worth of rent + residual value of my old OEM battery).

This would be totally unacceptable, would you agree?
The problem is, with no replacement battery and only the "rental" deal, I cannot sell the car after 8 years and it would be of far greater value to me, if I could keep it operating at a reasonable cost.

A few things to consider:
1) I dont think my 70% battery is going to be worth $8500 in 2019. It will be much less.
2) I dont think the current "real" cost of the Leaf battery right now is $17000
3) A new 24 kWH battery in 2019 will cost less than $10k

Lets say a 70% battery that is no longer good for automotive purposes is 50% of the value of an equivalent new battery.

A reasonable and fair deal would then be to offer a replacement with trade in at 50% of the new price.
A realistic estimate for this would be somewhere between $3000 and $6000.

Again, I could understand Nissans positions NOT to commit to numbers right now, but a statement along the lines of

"We will offer a replacement battery for sale in the future and will pay a fair market value for the used OEM battery in exchange" would give me some piece of mind.
 
KJD said:
If you can lease (rent) the entire car for 117 a month why is renting just the battery pack for 100 per month a good deal ?
The difference is in the $7,500 tax credit. Without that, $117 would have been $117+7500/24 = $430 (+ interest on that 7500).

With just the battery, you don't get that $7,500.

This is also the reason why it is better to just keep leasing for 2 year terms until the $7500 credit expires. People who want to buy the car and keep it for a long time are working against the tax credit incentives.
 
evnow said:
This is also the reason why it is better to just keep leasing for 2 year terms until the $7500 credit expires. People who want to buy the car and keep it for a long time are working against the tax credit incentives.
Yes, that's exactly the problem here, along with the implied battery wear and tear, plus the cost associated with replacing it.

DaveinOlyWA said:
so if buying a battery today, we might pay more than $17,000 which is what a Focus EV driver would pay today for a smaller pack. but the degraded battery is worth half that so we pay $8500. Are you ok with that?? guessing you are not even ok with HALF that and you would not be alone.
I disagree with this notion. I don't think it's fair to use the price another OEM has duly disclosed to justify Nissan's outline for their battery rental program. This price is likely based on a small volume of packs built by a subcontractor. Nissan is building its own batteries from the ground up. The largest value-add is reportedly manufacturing of cells. Nissan's cost structure is much different, but because it's all in-sourced they can play all kinds of accounting magic.

If they were buying the entire pack from someone else or were purchasing cells from an OEM like Tesla does with Panasonic, the implied cost would be a lot clearer. You cannot amortize a billion dollar battery plant on 50,000 packs. Perhaps it's this math and the associated cost structure, which they don't like to reveal. That might be a fair consideration, as long as the company stays within regulatory requirements for parts availability.

That said, I believe that there might be another way of approaching the problem without antagonizing existing owners.
 
If Nissan considers battery price a trade secret, and that's why they are unwilling to sell a replacement, why not just say that?
By the fact they haven't said that, it does appear they think the battery price will scare the market.
But refusing to give a price is scaring the market too.
Not providing a sell price for a replacement battery may be legal, and a properly structured rental arrangement with varying levels of mileage and % capacity guarantee, and with proper reasonable termination terms might be better for most people.
But Nissan's behaviour on this has violated the trust that the purchaser placed in the OEM.
If Nissan was going to refuse to sell batteries, then they should have refused to sell the car. Made it a lease only. It is unethical to sell someone an essential major part of the vehicle, and then give them no way to maintain the vehicle other than renting a battery, and the only warranty on that is 9 bars capacity.
I would never have bought the vehicle had I known that. I would have leased.
Just because almost all the EV OEMs are selling vehicles including the battery and then not providing much means to maintain the vehicle does not make it right.
If you're only willing to lease / rent the vehicle, then the only way you should provide the vehicle is as a complete lease.
As I've stated on MNL a couple times in the past year, most recently on 02-22-2013:
What the Nissan LEAF really needs is a very good customer appreciation fair conversion of people who bought 2011 / 2012 to a reasonable lease rate.
Nissan LEAF business model appears headed towards total disaster, if the market is going to value a $34,000 vehicle at something like $13,000 to $17,000 after a bit less than two years of use.
It needs to be a lease only vehicle, including a leasing of the used ones that come off of the initial lease.
If battery price is so high it is too scary to let it be known, or too trade secret important to let it out, then Nissan and the rest of the EV OEMs need to do the right thing and only lease them.
I just hope I can provide some positive feedback to the next person that asks about the LEAF.
I always have, although once the battery degradation in AZ came out, I have made it clear that it was best to lease the vehicle rather than buy due to uncertainty about battery life and lack of knowledge on replacement cost.
Nissan's handling of this has changed that into a definitely don't ever buy one.
Isn't change of recommendation going to even further kill resale value?
Buying a LEAF isn't as bad as the purchase I did of a top end Laserdisc player less than one year before they quit making laserdiscs.
It is fun, and a great vehicle.
But buying one instead of leasing was probably a stupid decision.
Hard to know for sure as won't know the total cost of ownership for another 6 years or so.
But right now it looks pretty stupid.
 
A battery lease will not be appealing because the people most in need of a new battery have already evidenced a dislike of leasing. If you liked the idea of leasing then you probably leased your Leaf. If you didn't you probably don't like the monthly fees. You'd rather pay once up front.

Since people leasing the Leaf likely won't have much of an issue with the battery, the battery lease would help those who decided to buy the Leaf -- precisely those who rejected leasing in the first place.
 
surfingslovak said:
evnow said:
This is also the reason why it is better to just keep leasing for 2 year terms until the $7500 credit expires. People who want to buy the car and keep it for a long time are working against the tax credit incentives.
Yes, that's exactly the problem here, along with the implied battery wear and tear, plus the cost associated with replacing it.

DaveinOlyWA said:
so if buying a battery today, we might pay more than $17,000 which is what a Focus EV driver would pay today for a smaller pack. but the degraded battery is worth half that so we pay $8500. Are you ok with that?? guessing you are not even ok with HALF that and you would not be alone.
I disagree with this notion. I don't think it's fair to use the price another OEM has duly disclosed to justify Nissan's outline for their battery rental program. This price is likely based on a small volume of packs built by a subcontractor. Nissan is building its own batteries from the ground up. The largest value-add is reportedly manufacturing of cells. Nissan's cost structure is much different, but because it's all in-sourced they can play all kinds of accounting magic.

If they were buying the entire pack from someone else or were purchasing cells from an OEM like Tesla does with Panasonic, the implied cost would be a lot clearer. You cannot amortize a billion dollar battery plant on 50,000 packs. Perhaps it's this math and the associated cost structure, which they don't like to reveal. That might be a fair consideration, as long as the company stays within regulatory requirements for parts availability.

That said, I believe that there might be another way of approaching the problem without antagonizing existing owners.

I agree its an unfair comparison which is why I used $12,000 instead but the Focus pack price is the only known entity in the EV world so part of the reason why I mentioned it is because Nissan is not alone in keeping secrets
 
Back
Top