How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

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WetEV said:
People in moderate climates, most of the USA, should be able to exceed the warranty easily.
**** BS ****
And we should remember that the warranty kicks in ~ 63% of new ... at least until Nissan decides on something different
 
smkettner said:
I believe both Tesla and GM have batteries that will be at 80%+ at 10 years.

Which is why GM's warranty is 8 years/100k miles and 60%.

Why didn't GM give a 20 year warranty to 60%, or something like that?
 
WetEV said:
With any EV, anyone relying on something "approaching the EPA reported EV range" is going to find unpleasant surprises. Listen to Uncle Sean!
My RAV4-EV would easily exceed the EPA ratings even as temperatures near freezing and 60,000 miles on the odometer. Likewise if the GOM said 130 miles you could drive 120 miles and the GOM was at 10 miles +- 5 miles.

This does not happen with Nissan products. I have long said the Nissan mile is only 4,000 feet. This does not mean all EVs operate this way.
 
WetEV said:
smkettner said:
I believe both Tesla and GM have batteries that will be at 80%+ at 10 years.

Which is why GM's warranty is 8 years/100k miles and 60%.

Why didn't GM give a 20 year warranty to 60%, or something like that?
The question is why doesn't Nissan offer this?

GM/Tesla don't have to because the battery chemistry and TMS is just better. Shorter life is a defect not endemic to the battery like Nissan.
 
WetEV said:
smkettner said:
I believe both Tesla and GM have batteries that will be at 80%+ at 10 years.

Which is why GM's warranty is 8 years/100k miles and 60%.

Why didn't GM give a 20 year warranty to 60%, or something like that?
Perhaps for the same reason that Tesla does not either, or Toyota warrants their products for way under 10 years.

The important distinction is that Nissan designs products to meet the warranty period while decent manufacturers engineer products to last much longer. I know this for two reasons: a wealth of reports, and Nissan's behavior towards customers just out of warranty.
 
WetEV said:
Battery likely replaced due to BMS reporting issue.
Yes, that turned out to be a large part of it, but here at the beginning of the foothills of the Sierra we still get scorched during many a summer day and that takes a big toll.

But like I said, we’re not complaining. Can’t say I see how, but if Nissan somehow figures this is a good deal for them, we will oblige the low cost of EV driving - we hadn’t been able to find a better EV deal for us :<$3k/yr to lease and a new EV vehicle in 3 years.
 
SageBrush said:
WetEV said:
People in moderate climates, most of the USA, should be able to exceed the warranty easily.
**** BS ****
And we should remember that the warranty kicks in ~ 63% of new ... at least until Nissan decides on something different

Golfcart seems to be doing better than warranty.

Where is your list of example?

As for Nissan changing the bars, I understand that there is a Dire Wolf in your closet. Any other bits of paranoia you want to share?
 
SageBrush said:
The important distinction is that Nissan designs products to meet the warranty period while decent manufacturers engineer products to last much longer. I know this for two reasons: a wealth of reports, and Nissan's behavior towards customers just out of warranty.

Henry Ford send people to junkyards to find out what Model-T parts had not worn out. So he could make those parts cheaper.

One day, [Henry] Ford sent some of his employees to car junkyards, with instructions to examine the condition of the remaining parts in Model T Fords that had been junked. The employees brought back the apparently disappointing news that almost all components showed signs of wear. The sole exceptions were the kingpins, which remained virtually unworn. To the employees’ surprise, Ford, instead of expressing pride in his well-made kingpins, declared that the kingpins were overbuilt, and that in the future they should be made more cheaply. Ford’s conclusion may violate our ideal of pride in workmanship, but it made economic sense; he had indeed been wasting money on long-lasting kingpins that outlasted the cars in which they were installed.

If Nissan is truly designing the battery to just barely meet the warranty in Phoenix, AZ, then the battery will last about twice the warranty in a place that is closer to US average. Battery life depends on on temperature, roughly following an Arrhenius relationship, with life doubling for about every 10C reduction in temperature.
 
WetEV said:
SageBrush said:
The important distinction is that Nissan designs products to meet the warranty period while decent manufacturers engineer products to last much longer. I know this for two reasons: a wealth of reports, and Nissan's behavior towards customers just out of warranty.

Henry Ford send people to junkyards to find out what Model-T parts had not worn out. So he could make those parts cheaper.

One day, [Henry] Ford sent some of his employees to car junkyards, with instructions to examine the condition of the remaining parts in Model T Fords that had been junked. The employees brought back the apparently disappointing news that almost all components showed signs of wear. The sole exceptions were the kingpins, which remained virtually unworn. To the employees’ surprise, Ford, instead of expressing pride in his well-made kingpins, declared that the kingpins were overbuilt, and that in the future they should be made more cheaply. Ford’s conclusion may violate our ideal of pride in workmanship, but it made economic sense; he had indeed been wasting money on long-lasting kingpins that outlasted the cars in which they were installed.

If Nissan is truly designing the battery to just barely meet the warranty in Phoenix, AZ, then the battery will last about twice the warranty in a place that is closer to US average. Battery life depends on on temperature, roughly following an Arrhenius relationship, with life doubling for about every 10C reduction in temperature.
Of course Nissan is doing the exact opposite of Henry. Henry built a great car and then found where he could save costs.

Nissan is building a minimum standard battery and BMS from the get go. Then attempting some slight improvements to minimize warranty costs.
 
smkettner said:
Nissan is building a minimum standard battery and BMS from the get go. Then attempting some slight improvements to minimize warranty costs.

And that is exactly what some people want, myself included. I don't need a Porsche 911T or whatever to do my commute and around town driving. I couldn't care less about my 0-60 time or if I can do 300 miles on a single charge. The Leaf is what it is. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy one.
 
smkettner said:
Henry built a great car and then found where he could save costs.

The Model T's were not all that great. Especially at first. Ford found lots of ways to improve reliability as well as to reduce cost and production time. But it was still first and always a flivver.

smkettner said:
Nissan is building a minimum standard battery and BMS from the get go. Then attempting some slight improvements to minimize warranty costs.

Flivver was slang for a Model T, but before that was slang for any cheap car.

Affordable, reliable, as simple as possible. As Henry Ford said:

I will build a car for the great multitude. It will be large enough for the family, but small enough for the individual to run and care for. It will be constructed of the best materials, by the best men to be hired, after the simplest designs that modern engineering can devise. But it will be so low in price that no man making a good salary will be unable to own one – and enjoy with his family the blessing of hours of pleasure in God's great open spaces.

The LEAF is a flivver. Not anything close to as popular as the Model T, but the same basic goal. Affordable and Family are the last two letters.
 
goldbrick said:
smkettner said:
Nissan is building a minimum standard battery and BMS from the get go. Then attempting some slight improvements to minimize warranty costs.

And that is exactly what some people want, myself included. I don't need a Porsche 911T or whatever to do my commute and around town driving. I couldn't care less about my 0-60 time or if I can do 300 miles on a single charge. The Leaf is what it is. If it doesn't suit your needs then don't buy one.

The issue isn't with the car's performance - it's with the battery's longevity. Maybe if they told people in showrooms, as a matter of policy: "Yes, it has a 151 mile EPA range, but that's just for maybe the first year. After that it declines from 4% to 10% or more a year - especially in hotter climates." (And remember to cut whatever range the car has in half for frigid weather driving on the highway.) The problem isn't with what Nissan promises, it's with what they actually deliver in the longer term.
 
This might be semi-good news in the OP's future used EV search: https://electrek.co/2019/02/19/tesla-model-3-leasing/.

Back to used S, one problem is that once out of warranty, they can become money pits too.

Examples below:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/clunking-sound-is-costing-me-a-bundle-to-fix-out-of-warranty.93857/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/nasty-noise-on-hard-acceleration.89747/ - try playing some of the videos
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-s-not-ready-for-commercial-use-prime-time-can-i-afford-to-own-this-car.36414/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-s-not-ready-for-commercial-use-prime-time-can-i-afford-to-own-this-car.36414/page-6#post-775682
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2700-to-fix-mcu-might-diy-but-how-much-to-reprogram-new-unit.94391/
$800 door handles (some of the failures you could fix yourself for cheap, but getting the door handle out and back in looks like a pain)
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/bubbles-on-display.88412/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/leaky-touchscreen.128691/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/a-c-compressor-finally-failed-but-3400.113478/

Once an S gets to be an $18K car, better not need any expensive repairs like the above or have to deal w/the drive unit or battery pack after its 8 year warranty is up.

Also, Tesla has elected to obfuscate the cost of service on the S and X. Whether or not they're necessary or not one can debate... but at the same time, who else can do the work?

See https://web.archive.org/web/20171201210355/https://www.tesla.com/support/maintenance-plans vs. https://www.tesla.com/support/maintenance-plans now. The first link at https://www.tesla.com/support/maintenance-plans points to https://www.tesla.com/support/car-maintenance, which has no prices. Hmmm...

This is all something to consider when one's target price on a used vehicle "needs" to become a certain small % of its original price.

If the OP's tax liability is sufficient to claim the entire $7500 Federal tax credit, he might be better off buying a new minimally equipped '19 Bolt prior to April 1st, 2019 rather than dealing with an out of warranty Tesla once its value falls to $18K. (See example prices I posted... buy from a CA dealer, if need be.)

A quick search on Autotrader and cars.com for all Tesla below $30K reveals most asking prices near $30K for cars that are either pretty old or high mileage or both.
 
WetEV said:
If Nissan is truly designing the battery to just barely meet the warranty in Phoenix, AZ, .
Don't we wish. The design is for the battery to last the duration of the warranty in a moderate climate.
 
cwerdna said:
Back to used S, one problem is that once out of warranty, they can become money pits too.
Of course, and the same is true for the LEAF. The problem here is owning a low volume, niche car. Expect the same to be true for the Bolt.
As I have written before, the Model 3 has the best chance of escaping that trap due to its volume sales.
 
goldbrick said:
The Leaf is what it is.
Indeed, but therein lies the problem. Only a small minority of its buyers in the US realize they are buying a piece of crap.
You are happy because you live in a cool/cold climate and bought a heavily discounted LEAF with a pile of tax credits piled on top. I was the same. We can be satisfied with our good fortune but that is hardly a defense of the LEAF.
 
SageBrush said:
Of course, and the same is true for the LEAF. The problem here is owning a low volume, niche car. Expect the same to be true for the Bolt.
As I have written before, the Model 3 has the best chance of escaping that trap due to its volume sales.

Aren't all Leaf to date on the same chassis? I have to imagine that all 130,000 sold share quite a few parts and that there will be a decent used part market out there especially with early models seeing large battery degradation. I would have to also think that the Leaf shares parts with other high volume Nissan cars like the Sentra or Versa as well... it would be silly not to.

If I go to the Autozone website and put a 2015 Leaf S in there I get $25 brake pads, $50 rotors, $99 struts... where are you seeing the high costs?
I honestly don't know that much because in 3.5 years of ownership I have only had to replace tires and windshield wiper blades.
 
golfcart said:
SageBrush said:
Of course, and the same is true for the LEAF. The problem here is owning a low volume, niche car. Expect the same to be true for the Bolt.
As I have written before, the Model 3 has the best chance of escaping that trap due to its volume sales.

Aren't all Leaf to date on the same chassis? I have to imagine that all 130,000 sold share quite a few parts and that there will be a decent used part market out there especially with early models seeing large battery degradation. I would have to also think that the Leaf shares parts with other high volume Nissan cars like the Sentra or Versa as well... it would be silly not to.

If I go to the Autozone website and put a 2015 Leaf S in there I get $25 brake pads, $50 rotors, $99 struts... where are you seeing the high costs?
I honestly don't know that much because in 3.5 years of ownership I have only had to replace tires and windshield wiper blades.
I shared your reasoning up until recently, and I'm sure it will turn out to be true some of the time. The threads about inner tie rod replacement were my first hint that replacement parts are not the simple matter we hope for, and of course that is just the mechanical parts that rarely need replacement in our low mileage cars.

Try to source an EV part and you will be ready to junk the car -- and that is before you learn the installation cost at the all too often incompetent dealership. Regarding body parts, there are no 3rd party sources. I don't know what fleet size is required for a 3rd party manufacturer to join the party. My WAG is ~ 0.5 million cars on the road.
 
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