Capacity Interchangeability

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DaveinOlyWA

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
16,260
Location
Olympia, WA
So I posted this in the 30 kwh degradation thread but the only thing going on there is mudslinging and name calling so figured I would repost here so this is a duplicate post but thought some might want to hear about it... :?

FYI; if you are getting a 30 kwh pack replaced under warranty, have the tech verify its the right size before they install it. :lol:

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/11/what-happens-when-all-your-stuff-looks.html
 
Wow! I hear a lot about doing a battery UP-grade.... Not a battery DE-graded.... (pun intended)

PS - I have read your writings and think the are great!!
 
powersurge said:
Wow! I hear a lot about doing a battery UP-grade.... Not a battery DE-graded.... (pun intended)

PS - I have read your writings and think the are great!!

Well, I will say I now have a new resident at the top of the "Techs I will NEVER use" list! :shock:
 
I fault Nissan for not having designed with upward-compatibility in mind from the start. Increasing capacity cells were an obvious given and all it would have taken is more intelligently adaptable (or upgradeable) software/firmware.

Makes a lot more sense than maintaining stock of 4 different capacity packs for replacements. And if you need a 24kWH pack 3 years from now, how long will it have sat in a warehouse?
 
Nubo said:
I fault Nissan for not having designed with upward-compatibility in mind from the start. Increasing capacity cells were an obvious given and all it would have taken is more intelligently adaptable (or upgradeable) software/firmware.

Makes a lot more sense than maintaining stock of 4 different capacity packs for replacements. And if you need a 24kWH pack 3 years from now, how long will it have sat in a warehouse?

They probably did but we won't see it from them. They want to sell new cars not extend the life of old cars. That is aftermarket's job.
 
Nubo said:
And if you need a 24kWH pack 3 years from now, how long will it have sat in a warehouse?
Yep -- that is the Achilles's heel for every owner who imagines an extended life for these cars.
 
SageBrush said:
Nubo said:
And if you need a 24kWH pack 3 years from now, how long will it have sat in a warehouse?
Yep -- that is the Achilles's heel for every owner who imagines an extended life for these cars.

under the correct conditions, the shelf life it pretty decent but realize they don't build all that many for warranty replacement purposes.

Ever wonder why Nissan always says expect 6-8 weeks for delivery but it almost always takes like 3 days? Well, now you know how long it takes to slap a pack together.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if a 2016 car could be upgraded to 30kWh just by installing it, but am completely unsurprised that an earlier car couldn't accept the bigger pack. I do presume that someone will crack the code at some point and it will become possible to upgrade the older cars, either by replacing the VCM, reprogramming it, or inserting some sort of translator ECU in between. We already know the LEAF handles an add-on pack without much fuss so not too much needs to be done.

P.S. That other thread has been hijacked into oblivion, and it's quite a shame.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
Nubo said:
And if you need a 24kWH pack 3 years from now, how long will it have sat in a warehouse?
Yep -- that is the Achilles's heel for every owner who imagines an extended life for these cars.

under the correct conditions, the shelf life it pretty decent but realize they don't build all that many for warranty replacement purposes.

Ever wonder why Nissan always says expect 6-8 weeks for delivery but it almost always takes like 3 days? Well, now you know how long it takes to slap a pack together.
I find it VERY hard to believe that in a couple of years AESC (or whatever it will be called) will be making one-off 24 kWh packs. And if they do, I sure do not want it.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
Nubo said:
And if you need a 24kWH pack 3 years from now, how long will it have sat in a warehouse?
Yep -- that is the Achilles's heel for every owner who imagines an extended life for these cars.

under the correct conditions, the shelf life it pretty decent but realize they don't build all that many for warranty replacement purposes.

Ever wonder why Nissan always says expect 6-8 weeks for delivery but it almost always takes like 3 days? Well, now you know how long it takes to slap a pack together.

Yeah, but until recently 24kWH packs were being supplied to the new car production line and they only needed to divert one occasionally to replacement. Now that production of 24kWH and 30kWH cars have ceased, I wonder about the feasibility of keeping those battery lines operational just for replacements. I worry that those will be taken from stockpiles.
 
Nubo said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
Yep -- that is the Achilles's heel for every owner who imagines an extended life for these cars.

under the correct conditions, the shelf life it pretty decent but realize they don't build all that many for warranty replacement purposes.

Ever wonder why Nissan always says expect 6-8 weeks for delivery but it almost always takes like 3 days? Well, now you know how long it takes to slap a pack together.

Yeah, but until recently 24kWH packs were being supplied to the new car production line and they only needed to divert one occasionally to replacement. Now that production of 24kWH and 30kWH cars have ceased, I wonder about the feasibility of keeping those battery lines operational just for replacements. I worry that those will be taken from stockpiles.

Not sure its all that difficult. Its simply individual cells assembled to create a certain capacity. As the tech progresses, the cells should become smaller but would be electrically the same. Plus Nissan controls the SW codes needed to make any pack work in any car so it wouldn't be a leap for them to install anything really.

the replacement packs used today are nowhere near the same as the ones put in 2011, 12 or 13's. I do see them maybe combining the 24/30 kwh capacities eventually dumping the 24 kwh pack. After all, 24 kwh packs are installed probably somewhere every week and they have been out of mainline production for over a year.

Right now it all comes down to Nissan's goal and right now its doing what it can to get us out of 24/30 kwh LEAFs and into the 40 kwh LEAF.
 
WRT future battery availability, aren't there are laws requiring auto manufacturers to stock replacement parts for N years to support their cars? IIRC it used to be 10 years for Chevy Corvair parts. My OTHER funky car.

Edit: Well maybe it's not a definite legal requirement.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/20/t/000675.html

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=10034
 
I wonder what would happen if you rewired all the 24kWh Leaf electrical parts, including the balancers and such in the battery case, to all new cells, like has been done in the past with 2015-2016 24kWh Leaf cells in older 24kWh Leafs, but this time using higher ah rated cells, or even doubled cells (in back of car or on trailer, etc.) Would the Leaf go into turtle mode and shut off once it thought the battery was "dead" based on the Ah's a 24kWh battery should have or would it keep going until actual voltages drop to their "dead" range? Would the Leaf be able to recalibrate it's GID's and estimated capacity based of the oversized cells or would it freak out and show an error because the voltage wouldn't change as expected after so many Ah's or at certain electrical loads?

I would only hope that the Leaf would continue to run until cell voltages were low enough to trigger turtle mode and then shut off. In that case you could theoretically take nearly any set of lithium ion cells of the same voltage range (30kWh, 40kWh, 60kWh, Tesla's 100kWh, etc.) and wire them to the individual components of the Leaf's battery management systems and then have a Leaf of whatever kWh value you want. Of course physical size, weight and how you would place or replace things like battery temperature sensors and warmers would also have to be considered. Of course in making your own battery pack this way you could also incorporate your own thermal management system while you're at it.
 
mariuzs said:

For anyone who couldn't get the language translator to work

I have "some" info but please clarify if I got any of it wrong

the gist of the video has 2 LEAFs, a 2013 and 2016 and basically a battery swap was done.

There was little or no issues with the 24 kwh pack in the 2016 but the 30 kwh pack full capacity was not recognized in the 2013. The car was "apparently" drivable but the GOM display was nonfunctional.

Upon further investigation, a switch of the VCM's was also required to allow the 2013 to recognize the 30 kwh capacity. This is a part that costs maybe $1385 (Nismo kit costs it as such so guessing that is a ballpark figure? )

So the question; putting a 30 kwh pack into a 24 kwh pack means you won't have more range but more time at 100% capacity because of the "hidden" 6 kwh?

If that is the case, that is not all that bad an option. The other option is paying an extra 2 G's for a VCM along with an unauthorized battery?

Even that might be an option. There is a European company selling 35 kwh packs using Lithium Iron Phosphate cells. Asked on price twice and they provide me with "it depends on what you want" but they don't supply me with options... so maybe a lost in translation thing?
 
"...but the only thing going on there is mudslinging and name calling..."

I'm on this forum just about everyday checking out what's going on - because of this forum I found out about the $10,000 utility rebate and wound up with a new 2017 S Leaf discounted by $20,500 in rebates.

I'm no prude but it is disturbing that mudslinging is becoming all too common here - it gets in the way of what this forum is all about. IMHO if you can't keep your comments civil, then don't post.
 
If that is the case, that is not all that bad an option. The other option is paying an extra 2 G's for a VCM along with an unauthorized battery?

The VCM was taken from '16 Leaf and then '13 Leaf could run with 30kwh battery.
With '13 VCM and 30kwh battery car runs only in emergency mode.
 
mariuzs said:
If that is the case, that is not all that bad an option. The other option is paying an extra 2 G's for a VCM along with an unauthorized battery?

The VCM was taken from '16 Leaf and then '13 Leaf could run with 30kwh battery.
With '13 VCM and 30kwh battery car runs only in emergency mode.

what is "emergency mode?"
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
mariuzs said:
If that is the case, that is not all that bad an option. The other option is paying an extra 2 G's for a VCM along with an unauthorized battery?

The VCM was taken from '16 Leaf and then '13 Leaf could run with 30kwh battery.
With '13 VCM and 30kwh battery car runs only in emergency mode.

what is "emergency mode?"

as in video shown, car won't switch to drive mode, old VCM can't recognize 30kwh battery
 
mariuzs said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
mariuzs said:
The VCM was taken from '16 Leaf and then '13 Leaf could run with 30kwh battery.
With '13 VCM and 30kwh battery car runs only in emergency mode.

what is "emergency mode?"

as in video shown, car won't switch to drive mode, old VCM can't recognize 30kwh battery

Ok so car is not drivable? Well that changes everything!
 
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