One the verge of buying... questions

Potential new buyer. Need advice. Commute 75 miles RT 5 days/weeks. New Hampshire= mountains and cold. Employer provides free 110V charging. At home, parked in 40 degree garage; at work, out in the elements. I am cheap but not a masochist. Want bang for the buck but would upgrade for "essential" options as described by you. I'm keeping older gas powered Toyota Matrix AWD for spare on nasty snow days. Looking to get 2014.

1. S vs SV trim line? Don't need fancy electronics but upgraded charger and "winter" package would be bonuses.
2. 3 kwh vs 6 kwh charger? Is this 120v; 240v? If I buy and install "wall charger" at home, is this compatible with either the 3 or 6 kwh charger? Thoughts/reviews on wall chargers models available? I do electrical wiring.
3. Lease at 12000 miles per year limit for 3 years ($2000 upfront; $199/month for S; $249/month for SV) or buy outright (I drive 20k per) year and drive until battery dies at approximately 5 years?

Appreciate all comments / thoughts. Thanks.

Might be stretching it with only L1 charging at work. Assuming a 9-hour charge time, you'd only get +40% charge. This might be insufficient after a year.
After 1 year, assuming 85% original capacity, 40% SOC would net you ~30 miles. Really depends on how you drive, though.

That said…

1: If you don't need fancy electronics (like a larger console screen) then the S is probably fine. Personally, I would recommend the SV if you're between them.

2: 3kW and 6kW are both L2 charging rates. All L2 EVSEs can work on either configuration. The only difference is the max rate it will charge. The 6.6kW charger option effectively cuts time in half. Highly recommended in case your employer decides to install charging stations, and to make the best use of home charging for weekend commutes.

3: The battery will last far longer than 5 years. You just won't have >~70% capacity after 100k miles. With 20k annually, you could probably drive it 10 years before you're unable to make a 40mi 1-way trip. Most leases have a buy-out option, generally around $11k. Adding the ~$9k you'd pay for leasing the S, your total cost is ~$20k. In that scenario, the leasing company (NMAC) gets the tax credits.

gaspasser said:

Potential new buyer. Need advice. Commute 75 miles RT 5 days/weeks. New Hampshire= mountains and cold. Employer provides free 110V charging. At home, parked in 40 degree garage; at work, out in the elements. I am cheap but not a masochist. Want bang for the buck but would upgrade for "essential" options as described by you. I'm keeping older gas powered Toyota Matrix AWD for spare on nasty snow days. Looking to get 2014.

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Your scenario is almost identical to mine, except swap NE Ohio for New Hampshire and I don't have the luxury of charging at work. Depending on conditions, expect to blow through ~40% of a new battery each direction. I can tell you from experience that choosing at least an SV will be a better choice. Running that many miles you will want the more efficient HVAC, 6.6KW charger, stronger brake regeneration, and remote control of the HVAC through a smart phone. Start looking at Plugshare for alternate charging location along your commute route just in case something unexpected happens with your charging at work and alternate non-expressway routes if need to get the speed down to stretch the range. The 6.6kW charger comes into play in these cases as it will suck up roughly 30% charge in about an hour on a full L2 which is twice the upload rate of the basic S model.

1) The SV will have a heat pump heater that will be more efficient in cold, but not below zero, weather. It also has cruise control and more advanced charge timers, plus the ability to initiate charge and climate control remotely through a computer or smart phone. The SV will also have B mode, which is a big deal when descending steep hills. The 2014 S has none of these.

2) Get the charge package if buying the S. The 6 kW charger will help with using charge stations if you need a bit of extra range. Whether or not the quick charge port will be useful depends on whether DCFC quick charge stations appear in your area, something that is hard to predict.

3) For such a long commute, 12,000 miles is much too low. Most people who buy a LEAF find they use it for more miles than they expected. Even if you took the ICE car on occasion in snowy conditions, if you used the LEAF for 45 weeks a year that's 16,875 miles and that's with no side trips or weekend trips. Even with a 15,000 mile lease you will likely exceed the mile limit and need to pay for the extra miles.

As to whether you can make that commute, with reliable L1 charging at work, yes, I think you can as long as you use the heater judiciously in severe winter weather, keep your speeds moderate, and use the ICE in very snowy weather. Or, in trying conditions, if you have access to public charge stations you could make a charge stop. Not convenient, but it could be done if you have any public charging around. In mild conditions the L1 charging might add 4 miles/hour. In winter driving you might get only about 2.5 miles/hour. But if you start with a full battery from home (L2 charging required) and preheat, you should be ok unless you travel most of the way at 60 mph or higher.

You could make it work, but it isn't easy doing a commute that long in a cold winter climate. If the work charging isn't reliable, forget it. You are something of an edge case so it depends on how much you want to make it work. Unless you are committed or willing to just park the LEAF in very cold or snowy weather, I would recommend against it. Wait another couple of years and see if a longer range LEAF, or other EV, becomes available and affordable. Or you could just use a 12,000 mile lease LEAF as a summer car plus short local driving in winter; the savings in gas over the ICE might pay for the lease. Up to you.

With L1 charging at work, I don't think you'll have a problem with this commute. In the summer, you can get by with charging solely at home. In the winter, on the coldest days, you'll need it. I have a 60-mile round-trip commute. I use L2 charging only at work. I can make the round trip even on the coldest days still (under -10°F). But it's close. With L1 charging for a few hours in between, and charging fully overnight, you won't have a problem.

1. In the winter, I never use the heat, but I do make extensive use of the heated seats and steering wheel, as well as a heavy coat, hat, and gloves. The improved heater in the SV will only help on mild days - on cold days (below freezing?) it still uses resistive heating of coolent and is of no help with efficiency. So figure out what you're willing to deal with in the winter. Running the heater will really zap the range.

2. If you're only going to have L1 charging available, then there's not much point in having the 6kWh charger. The 2011-2012 Leafs only have the 3kWh option, and it's been fine.

3. I chose to buy mine, but that's personal preference. I've had a lot of fun performing several of the "upgrades" mentioned on this board. You have to be careful doing that with a leased vehicle.

dgpcolorado said:

You are something of an edge case so it depends on how much you want to make it work.

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This is the main takeaway. If you really want this, you can make adjustments when necessary and it will work for you. But there will come some times when you'll have to decide to drive slower or go without the heater in order to make it to your destination. Not often, but it will happen.

garsh said:

With L1 charging at work, I don't think you'll have a problem with this commute. In the summer, you can get by with charging solely at home. In the winter, on the coldest days, you'll need it. I have a 60-mile round-trip commute. I use L2 charging only at work. I can make the round trip even on the coldest days still (under -10°F). But it's close. With L1 charging for a few hours in between, and charging fully overnight, you won't have a problem.

1. In the winter, I never use the heat, but I do make extensive use of the heated seats and steering wheel, as well as a heavy coat, hat, and gloves. The improved heater in the SV will only help on mild days - on cold days (below freezing?) it still uses resistive heating of coolant and is of no help with efficiency. So figure out what you're willing to deal with in the winter. Running the heater will really zap the range.

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The chart Nissan published indicated that the heat pump was more efficient down to around -10C IIRR, or 14 degrees F.

I agree that you're an edge case, and I would opt for the SV for the heat pump, as it will stretch the days when you can use it with no range problems into late fall and from late winter. OTOH, unlike the 2014 S, the 2015 S does have cruise control and B mode, if those are important to you. And I concur that at least a 15k mile lease or buying is the way to go, as long as you have some kind of backup for winter, either ICE or at least enroute L2. Waiting for a longer range BEV in the same price range may be the best option; a MB B-class would be a better fit for you now, but is pricey. Same goes for an i3 w/Rex. A Volt might be your best bet, if you want to get your feet wet and drive mostly electric for around $35k MSRP, but don't want to have to conform your driving habits/comfort around the car.

Several things that have already been suggested need to be emphasized:

* Lease. Do NOT buy. Don't even consider buying if you have a commute longer than 40 miles round trip, ever. Get a 15k mile lease.

* Do *not* get a model S. You will have to choose between life-giving heat and making it home in the worst NH Winter weather. The heatpump in the SV does make a difference even in 15 degree weather.

* Don't worry about having (reliable) L-1 charging only at work, but *do* make sure you have a backup plan. I used L-1 for a 43 mile RT commute this last Winter in Upstate NY, with no charging at work, and I did ok. I could have done maybe 50 miles RT without getting into knuckle-biting territory, range-wise, and I did use the heat. (I also used a 12 volt heated throw blanket.) You will have it charging most of the time in colder weather, but this also seems to keep the battery pack warmer. My Pack heater only came on twice last Winter, and it was a bad one.

Found the chart showing the heat pump's efficiency vs. the resistive heater's:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11348" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am very grateful for the detailed, thoughful responses. I learned more in reading your posts than I have in weeks of internet research. Bravo folks! I'm heading to the dealer today for a test drive and to pick their brains. I am intrigued by the "upgrades" mentioned by garsh. Are there DIY tinkering options (such as upgrading the charger, efficiency tweaks) that sqeeze out more bang for the buck? Many thanks again.

Here are some of the mods I made. Nothing as useful as upgrading the charger, I'm afraid.

Seat Bottom Mod For More Thigh Support
Several of us thing that the front of the driver's seat is too low, and doesn't provide support for your thighs. This little modification solves that problem.

Headrests are uncomfortable
Cars manufactured after 2009 have the headrests pushed forward more to meet new safety regulations. I find this to be uncomfortable when using a proper upright seating position. This one little trick solves the problem.

HOW TO: Make the VSP (noisemaker) button default to off
I like having a totally silent car when I leave the house at 5am. I added a button that allows me to selectively turn off the VSP when desired. It's a long thread, but there are several useful posts in it, including turbo2ltr's very useful pictures, GeekEV's instructions, my description of what I did, and my picture of the mounted switch.

Easy Climate Control Fan-Only Solution - 5 cents, 5 mins
When the temperator drops below 60°F, the heater kicks on to warm up the coolent whenever you turn on the climate control at all. I made this change (option 2) to allow me to prevent this from happening. This way I can turn on defrost in the winter without zapping my range. I'm not sure if this is still an issue with the new models.

How To: Reverse Backup Camera for SV Model w/ OEM Telematics
With the 2012 SV model, there was no backup camera. I added a camera that displays on the in-dash screen following these instructions.

Dash cam mirrow power supply.I added a dashcam to the car. I didn't want the power line hanging down from it. So I tapped into the map lights power.

Altima wheels with Blizzak tires
I've probably had the most fun scavanging craigslist for wheels & tires. I managed to get a set of Altima wheels for $100, then a set of Blizzaks (used one season) mounted on steelies for $100, then sold the steelies for $100.

Installed G35 wheels
I just bought a set of Infiniti G35 wheels, but haven't had a chance to try them out yet. They're in much rougher shape than the ones in knightarmor's post. But I wanted something wider than stock, to fill out the wheel wells and look a little more sporty. We'll see how it works out. I still need to obtain some tires to fit the wheels.

gaspasser said:

I am very grateful for the detailed, thoughful responses. I learned more in reading your posts than I have in weeks of internet research. Bravo folks! I'm heading to the dealer today for a test drive and to pick their brains. I am intrigued by the "upgrades" mentioned by garsh. Are there DIY tinkering options (such as upgrading the charger, efficiency tweaks) that sqeeze out more bang for the buck? Many thanks again.

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Talking to the car dealer to get input on leasing or buying a vehicle is a real bad idea, especially with the LEAF.
Not better than a 2% chance you will learn anything from them that you shouldn't already know from thorough extensive reading of MNL.
All you need from the dealer is pricing which probably is better done via email and some test driving to see if you like the LEAF and choosing between the models by seeing the differences first hand.

Not much efficiency upgrades for LEAF. Mostly putting in LED lights where Nissan should have had them to start with but efficiency impact is modest. There is a very expensive Brusa charger add on. If you want faster L2 charging and with driving distance you are considering you need it then buy LEAF that has it.

Your plan for the LEAF is on the extreme edge of what it can do. I think it is a bad idea but it is a matter of what you want to tolerate. Do you like driving with no heat in really cold weather?
The LEAF is nominally a 40 to 60 mile vehicle, and in <10 F weather it will be a 30 to 35 mile vehicle after three years of capacity loss.

The 2014 LEAF will be getting real marginal for you after three years. From that standpoint a lease is probably better. But at 20,000 miles per year you will pay a lot on miles.

If I was going to do what you are considering I would want a 2015. Yes you don't live in a hot area. But the LEAF capacity degrades with time. The improved chemistry may reduce this rate. No way to know for sure. But with your extreme case I would want everything that might help just in case.

Get the SV model - the 6 kW charger is a boone. It will allow you to use the car for other than work when you get home. In addition, it makes public charging use a blessing. 24ish miles per hour of charger versus 13ish on a 3.3 will save you money on the stations that charge per hour and makes public charging more viable (plus that package has the QC port as well a wonderful item). The heat pump will help a bunch too. Yea it won't always be working in extreme colds, but when it does, it will save you lots of range.

Lease or buy - that's up to you. I tried later to see if I couldn't turn in my 2011 for a 2014/2015 but the extra lease miles KILLS me (I do 19k-20k per year) and jacks up the lease price, even if you prebuy the miles (suggest you do). But it may still be cheaper than buying outright.

garsh said:

Here are some of the mods I made. Nothing as useful as upgrading the charger, I'm afraid.

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I think you left out two of the MOST performed mods:
1) Upgrade supplied L1 charger to L2 (cheapest way to go L2)
2) Replace weak horn with ANYTHING louder (many have done the cheap FIAM dual-horns)

That being said, I think your RT commute is pushing it, especially in the cold or after a few years.

mctom987 said:

After 1 year, assuming 85% original capacity, 40% SOC would net you ~30 miles. Really depends on how you drive, though.

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While you do have to plan on capacity loss, New Hampshire's climate is relatively good for battery longevity. It wouldn't be unexpected to still have around 90-95% capacity after the first year.

Since you're keeping an ICE for the toughest days, I'd say go for it. On most days, with L1 at work, your commute should be easy.

If I were acquiring a LEAF right now, I think I'd be willing to spend a bit extra on the 2015 model in hopes that the newer battery chemistry will prove more durable over the long haul. The 2014 battery should be fine in your climate, but better longevity is always helpful.

TimLee said:

...
The LEAF is nominally a 40 to 60 mile vehicle, and in <10 F weather it will be a 30 to 35 mile vehicle after three years of capacity loss.
...

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I would expect the LEAF to perform much better than that. With L1 charging available in the middle of your trip, I don't think you would have any problems with this trip at all, even after many years and even if you experience significant battery degradation. I would not necessarily expect you to always have a full battery when you left work, but plenty to get you home safely where you would presumably install L2 to make sure you had a full charge by morning.

If you can find other LEAF owners in your area, ask them how the car does in the Winter months.

Chocula said:

TimLee said:

...
The LEAF is nominally a 40 to 60 mile vehicle, and in <10 F weather it will be a 30 to 35 mile vehicle after three years of capacity loss.
...

Click to expand...

I would expect the LEAF to perform much better than that.

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Agreed. My leaf is 2.5 years old. I'm in western PA. I still have all 12 bars, and had no issues making my 60-mile round trip on a single charge all last winter. My car has over 36,000 miles now.

TimLee is in Tennessee, meaning he has to deal with warmer weather, which does induce battery capacity loss. I'm guessing that skews his perspective in that direction.

garsh said:

Agreed. My leaf is 2.5 years old. I'm in western PA. I still have all 12 bars, and had no issues making my 60-mile round trip on a single charge all last winter. My car has over 36,000 miles now.

TimLee is in Tennessee, meaning he has to deal with warmer weather, which does induce battery capacity loss. I'm guessing that skews his perspective in that direction.

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Yes, it is a matter of perspective.
A bit of mine is due to a bit faster degradation due to multiple 104 F days during one really hot summer.
But there are different perspectives on vehicle use too.
Some routinely arrive home with low battery warning or very low battery warning and have turtled the LEAF several times.
I don't.
Some think driving long distances in the winter with no heat is OK.
I don't.
It is up to the OP to carefully review their perspective and determine if the LEAF is right for them.
But for many using a LEAF for a 75 mile round trip that depends on 120 V charging at work is somewhat extreme.

I'm also in NH and think you can do it, if you have your heart in it. But as others have said, it will take some adapting and determination on your part. If you're looking for a replacement for your current car and expect it to be better in all regards, don't go for the Leaf. Get a Prius.

If you get a Leaf:
You will save a lot of gas and in the long run, a lot of money.
You will help clean the environment.
The ride will be quiet. It's a great car.

But:
You will be charging the car daily. Eventually, you will consider this a minor hassle.
You will be constantly checking your charge remaining. It will become a way of life.
You will adapt your driving style and perhaps also your route to save charge.

In NH winters, I am very comfortable going to work with my coat on (duh!) and with the seat warmers, but not running the heat. The heater heats the whole cabin, but the seat warmers just heat you. It's a much more energy efficient way to stay warm.

Not everyone will accept this compromise, however. People got used to running the heater full blast until the car warms up and then perhaps opening or removing the coat for the rest of the drive.

If your commute is high-speed highway such as 93 or 89, then you will use more charge on the drive. If your commute is stop-and-go or lower speed back roads, you'll get better range on a charge. I have no trouble going to Boston high speed ~60 miles on one charge with range to spare, charging there at one of the Chargepoint stations, and coming home that evening.

Bob

TimLee said:

But for many using a LEAF for a 75 mile round trip that depends on 120 V charging at work is somewhat extreme.

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I understood him to also have charging available at home. I agree that going a full 75 miles on 8 hours of L1 charging would be undoable. But combine that with even just 10 hours of L1 charging at home, and that's a piece of cake, even in the winter.