Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

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Luft

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
418
Location
Tenino, WA
Here in the state of Washington we've heard over and over about the “Electric Highway” and we get one promise after another that DC QC stations are just a few months away. But the reality is that we have zero, none, zip, nadda, zilch public DC QC stations. To me it's starting to smell really bad.

Several companies have been given MANY millions of dollars (Well over 100 million I believe.) to put in the electric infrastructure and they have chosen to install many, many L2 charging stations and plan to charge a premium price for their use. Yet the only public DC QC station is WAY up north near the Canadian border making it useless to almost anyone. And it isn't even operational yet!

So what do you think? Are the DC QC stations being delayed for technical reasons or intentionally for political reasons (Like the auto and oil industries trying to kill the EV market) or do you think they are being delayed because the companies who received many millions of tax payer's dollars have visions of buckets of money pouring out of EV drivers pockets when they use the L2 charging stations?

I for one am beginning to become annoyed.
 
I'll add a fourth choice - host participation. The hardware may be low/no cost, but it's about finding willing hosts to pay the up-front installation costs as well as the ongoing operational costs. Will revenue from users cover these costs? For some installations, it could, but for others it won't. The business owner/host would have to be willing to subsidize the operation. To me, that's the primary challenge.
 
Randy; you need to review the West Coast EV Highway Project Parameters.

the only thing the business need provide is 2 parking spaces. the Project will cover 100% of all expenses for the first 3 years. that includes installation, maintenance, site prep, electricity used, etc. the whole 9 yards.

installation and site prep pretty much covers 95% of the long term cost of anything. there is literally no risk to the business.


i think part of it is simply no traction. even among the EV community, there is no unity. on this forum, what is the preferred charging option?

i see people upset that there is no L3 but others are upset that money was spent on L2's as if that money prevented an L3 from being built. the Project provides funding for 310 DCFC stations and most are still up for grabs.

now, yes we have heard that there are several "just around the corner" and have heard that for over 8 months. now; if looking at the overall picture, being 8 months behind is not really all that bad.

what makes it bad is that a... well "several" tentative dates have been mentioned and have come and gone. the official word is now "Spring 2012" which means that it is "just around the corner"

but we also have OR which already has a half dozen of them. TN also does although most of theirs is private business funds... but ya, it does suck but at the same time, i don t think there is some deep dark counter attack happening to derail the project.

it is really a lack of excitement and commitment is how it comes across to me.
 
One big issue is that the only reasonably priced QC station in production or planned for production is the one that Nissan plans to sell for 10 k. Nobody in the US has been able to buy one. I was looking on the AV website yesterday and still not a peep about ordering the Nissan QC station and they are supposed to sell and install them. As soon as these are available to buy, there are buyers lined up. I know a few buyers myself that are eagerly waiting. There have been no additional announcements from Nissan about their station in the last 3 months. Hopefully the delay is not with AV.
 
EVDrive said:
One big issue is that the only reasonably priced QC station in production or planned for production is the one that Nissan plans to sell for 10 k. Nobody in the US has been able to buy one. I was looking on the AV website yesterday and still not a peep about ordering the Nissan QC station and they are supposed to sell and install them. As soon as these are available to buy, there are buyers lined up. I know a few buyers myself that are eagerly waiting. There have been no additional announcements from Nissan about their station in the last 3 months. Hopefully the delay is not with AV.


I'll be happy to bet you that you will NEVER see those $10,000 chargers from AV. You can buy the Andromeda unit right now for about $17,000. Price will go up to $25,000 in the next few months.

Full power (50kW) and portable. Made in California.
 
Talk to the people who are administering the DC Fast Charger (Quick Charger, QC) installation grants and see what their issues are. Then you can start to help them, with other WA LEAF drivers to get those solved.

In Northern CA, we have verified construction started on a couple QC sites. We should see a couple sites going operational in April. There's another, maybe 2 dozen we could have in Northern CA if we can identify sites willing to host a QC by June or so. I'm not sure what happens after June, if the grant money goes away or can be renewed.

Finding a QC site, getting the agreement signed, pulling permits, etc. is a long complex process that can run into issues. There's issues like advertising for chargers that have displays and who gets the revenue for it. There's the energy charge and demand charges for electricity.

It's interesting to look at the CHAdeMO site and see the lists of installed sites - Huge in Japan, a bunch in Western Europe, some in Texas and Chicago, with CA and WA lagging. They ARE coming in CA. I'm less familiar with the situation in WA, I suspect they should start popping up there over the next few months to year. As drivers, we can help with identifying sites and helping the parties understand the contracts. We can also do some things that the charger proivider or host site can't do as effectively - like asking cities to speed up QC permit applications or even install QCs, or lobby the local politicians - city councils, mayor, etc.

There's quite a bit of activity in Palo Alto CA right now to get some QCs put in by the city and a few from a charging provider. Without the efforts of LEAF owners, the city would not be putting in the QCs. In part, because it didn't really occur to them to do so. There's some familiarity with adding level 2 charging to development projects but much less for QCs. That's one of several areas where we can come in and make things happen!

They'll likely be a fair backorder for the Nissan $10k QCs. They ARE coming! Watch for them in the next couple months.
 
WA State has em coming from two different directions. the EV Highway Project is installing like 40? or 50 in the Seattle area by Ecotality. then Gregoire decided to expand the coverage from border to border and went to Aeroenvironment (the other guys) to commission 9 more to cover I-5 from Canada to Oregon.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
WA State has em coming from two different directions. the EV Highway Project is installing like 40? or 50 in the Seattle area by Ecotality. then Gregoire decided to expand the coverage from border to border and went to Aeroenvironment (the other guys) to commission 9 more to cover I-5 from Canada to Oregon.
Have you gotten any information on timelines and any grant expiration dates, if there are any expiration dates? It's long overdue for WA and CA to pass Texas in QC deployments!!! Just ask Jay Inslee.
 
There is no source of reliable information about quick chargers. Here is a post on this website:
Forum Supporter
Leaf Number: 1855
I called Bell Ford and Riverview Toyota and both said the DCQCs will be online in a week or so. Both said they are going to charge what it costs them for the juice, but neither had any idea what it would be yet.

Other people have used the quick charger at Blink headquarters in Phoenix during its testing phase.

There are some reports of operational quick chargers in Tennessee. But, I can find no really dependable information. A call to Leaf CS was fruitless.

As of my now, I am treating the delay in quick chargers as much like the delays in the delivery of Leafs. I got mine six months after the first delivery promise.

To me the crucial need for wide adoption of EVs is quick chargers every 40 miles on Interstates. Compared to other investments in electric cars, this would not be a great expense. As soon as people start reporting trips from New York to California in reasonable time, the public will look upon electric vehicles as first cars.

Should Envia deliver on its promise of 300 mile batteries within two years, quick chargers wont really matter that much. If not Envia, I am convinced that somebody else will do it. Unless electric car technology differs from all other technology in a very few years it will be vastly improved and cheaper.
 
Desertstraw said:
Should Envia deliver on its promise of 300 mile batteries within two years, quick chargers wont really matter that much. If not Envia, I am convinced that somebody else will do it. Unless electric car technology differs from all other technology in a very few years it will be vastly improved and cheaper.

Actually, with a 300 mile battery, I would need the quick chargers even more. A 100-mile battery, like the Leaf has, can easily be recharged during the night or during the workday. A 85kWh battery however can't, at least not with the power levels available here for AC recharging (16A 230V, or 3.7kW). So for long drives I'd have to rely on at least one 1hr QC session per day to fill the car up.

Lack of CHAdeMO compatibility is why I haven't reserved a Model S yet. It can't replace our diesel car without a workable fast charging option. So for now it's VW TDI + Leaf.
 
No specific timeline yet.Web says spring. I just sent my bi monthly email requesting additional info yesterday. Should have a response by wed or so
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
i think part of it is simply no traction. even among the EV community, there is no unity. on this forum, what is the preferred charging option?
I for one don't care much about QC. I know we have some QC zelots on here, though. I'd much rather D/FW area (where I live) have hundreds of L2 stations vs. dozens of QC stations. The QC stations just don't make financial sense to operate until there are millions of EV's on the road. They will constantly depend on government funds.

Sure, some people think QC is a solution for longer trips. But I just don't see it. You're only going to get 50 miles at best between quick charges and then waiting 30 minutes. It just isn't practical. But if there were an L2 in every parking lot of every major mall, grocery store, movie theater, strip mall, restaurant, etc. That would pretty much make my day. I'd be able to comfortably drive all over D/FW without ever fearing a low battery. I think that would go a long way towards mitigating fears of potential adopters.

Also, I must point out that if you take the number of EVs and PHEVs on the road, which is a small number already, only a fraction of those actually support QC. So it just makes even less sense. I wonder if we could come up with an estimate of how many QC capable vehicles are on the road in the USA. I'm willing to bet it is around 7,000 or less. Yet there are over 20,000 cars that support L2 and that number will be growing fast over the next year or two.
 
adric22 said:
Also, I must point out that if you take the number of EVs and PHEVs on the road, which is a small number already, only a fraction of those actually support QC. So it just makes even less sense..
And why pay for the L3 charge port, when there aren't any QC stations? Vicious cycle... I was willing to gamble that the chargers will come eventually. I agree that it'll be a pain to have a best-possible speed of 40MPH on the intertates (roughly, figuring 1 hour at 60MPH, followed by .5 hour sitting at a L3 charger, assuming it hasn't been vandalized or otherwise broken down, and isn't currently busy). I'd do it, though, for the few times a year that I need to make 200-300 mile trips. So far, ICE rental costs are pretty much consuming most of my LEAF's operating cost savings.
 
We need both L2 and QC units. I drive outside of the leafs range a good 20 times a year so I am eagerly awaiting QC stations. Yes it is awesome to have L2 charging everywhere (I charged up at IKEA today actually) but if I want to drive 120 miles in a day, which is a common weekend trip in the bay area, I have to wait for 5-6 hours for my car to charge halfway through the trip. That makes no sense for me or for my friends who are not yet purchasing EV's. However a 30 minute QC would get me right back home and having them widely deployed would give a sense of security to all EVdrivers with Quick Charge ports. It is an issue of tacking our EV'sfrom niche to mainstream and Nissan knows this which is why they have created there own QC unit.

Ardic, do the math around times to charge. Just because you don't care about fast charging, it doesn't mean you are a majority. In fact you are not, most Leaf buyers bought the QC port. How obvious is that for an endorsement of QCing. I would buy the portable QC unit myself as Tony suggested but I would have nowhere to plug it in.
 
EVDrive said:
We need both L2 and QC units. I drive outside of the leafs range a good 20 times a year so I am eagerly awaiting QC stations. Yes it is awesome to have L2 charging everywhere (I charged up at IKEA today actually) but if I want to drive 120 miles in a day, which is a common weekend trip in the bay area, I have to wait for 5-6 hours for my car to charge halfway through the trip. That makes no sense for me or for my friends who are not yet purchasing EV's. However a 30 minute QC would get me right back home and having them widely deployed would give a sense of security to all EVdrivers with Quick Charge ports. It is an issue of tacking our EV'sfrom niche to mainstream and Nissan knows this which is why they have created there own QC unit.

Ardic, do the math around times to charge. Just because you don't care about fast charging, it doesn't mean you are a majority. In fact you are not, most Leaf buyers bought the QC port. How obvious is that for an endorsement of QCing. I would buy the portable QC unit myself as Tony suggested but I would have nowhere to plug it in.
+1. In the Bay Area at least, if you want to use an EV for many weekend day trips (Pt. Reyes/Bodega Bay, Monterey/Carmel/Big Sur etc.) you pretty much need QC. I consider reasonable one-day range to include one en-route QC each way, plus charging at destination. It's not ideal compared to (at least) one-way non-stop, but acceptable. A Leaf might just be able to get from Sacramento to Lake Tahoe the same way; it could certainly make it back. A car with the range of the Coda, especially the 36kWh version, would have a better shot.
 
adric22 said:
...Sure, some people think QC is a solution for longer trips. But I just don't see it. You're only going to get 50 miles at best between quick charges and then waiting 30 minutes. It just isn't practical. But if there were an L2 in every parking lot of every major mall, grocery store, movie theater, strip mall, restaurant, etc. That would pretty much make my day...

Makes perfect sense to me.

That's the practical reason we currently distribute gasoline, at the rate of a pint per hour, at all those same locations...
 
To make the EV the dominate car we need both 300 mile batteries and QC's. Or we could use 100 mile batteries and an Extended Range genset. see http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/analysis/jet-power-bladons-microjets-enable-jaguar-turbine-hybrid/1005528.article" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bladon MicroJet coupled with a generator makes a woderful combination. A small trailer or maybe a cairer that slips into a tow hitch receiver, running on a 20lbs LP bottle would extend the driving range of the EV to 500 plus miles and still have a fully charged battery at the end. Just change the tank for another 500 miles if needed.

That will give us time to fill out the QC charging locations. In GA we have a few around Atlanta, but you still cannot reach TN or even middle GA. I would love a few QC's at every rest stop.
 
adric22 said:
... Sure, some people think QC is a solution for longer trips. But I just don't see it. You're only going to get 50 miles at best between quick charges and then waiting 30 minutes. It just isn't practical. But if there were an L2 in every parking lot of every major mall, grocery store, movie theater, strip mall, restaurant, etc. ...
Luckily, the powers that be know the truth...we need them both. I want L2 sprinkled around for the same reason you do. I want QC so that I can extend my range to the next metro area, in my case Orange County and Los Angeles. I can reach those areas with one QC each way and the ability to charge L2 while at my destination(s). I wouldn't try to go farther no matter how many QCs were available.
 
jkirkebo said:
Desertstraw said:
Should Envia deliver on its promise of 300 mile batteries within two years, quick chargers wont really matter that much. If not Envia, I am convinced that somebody else will do it. Unless electric car technology differs from all other technology in a very few years it will be vastly improved and cheaper.

Actually, with a 300 mile battery, I would need the quick chargers even more. A 100-mile battery, like the Leaf has, can easily be recharged during the night or during the workday. A 85kWh battery however can't, at least not with the power levels available here for AC recharging (16A 230V, or 3.7kW). So for long drives I'd have to rely on at least one 1hr QC session per day to fill the car up.

Lack of CHAdeMO compatibility is why I haven't reserved a Model S yet. It can't replace our diesel car without a workable fast charging option. So for now it's VW TDI + Leaf.

You are aware that the Model S does have DC fast charge? Just not CHADEMO
 
cdub said:
jkirkebo said:
You are aware that the Model S does have DC fast charge? Just not CHADEMO

yep, Tesla is making a huge mistake going alone with a proprietary standard no other EV will be able to share... imagine all those "Tesla only" chargers. Sometimes exclusivity is just a waste of redundant resources and a lost opportunity to give CHADEMO the momentum it needs.
 
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