Luft
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Location: Tenino, WA

Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:45 pm

Here in the state of Washington we've heard over and over about the “Electric Highway” and we get one promise after another that DC QC stations are just a few months away. But the reality is that we have zero, none, zip, nadda, zilch public DC QC stations. To me it's starting to smell really bad.

Several companies have been given MANY millions of dollars (Well over 100 million I believe.) to put in the electric infrastructure and they have chosen to install many, many L2 charging stations and plan to charge a premium price for their use. Yet the only public DC QC station is WAY up north near the Canadian border making it useless to almost anyone. And it isn't even operational yet!

So what do you think? Are the DC QC stations being delayed for technical reasons or intentionally for political reasons (Like the auto and oil industries trying to kill the EV market) or do you think they are being delayed because the companies who received many millions of tax payer's dollars have visions of buckets of money pouring out of EV drivers pockets when they use the L2 charging stations?

I for one am beginning to become annoyed.
Last edited by Luft on Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Luft
Tenino, Washington
Red SL + QC
Reserved: 05/10/2011
Ordered: 05/11/2011
Estimated Delivery Date: Month of August 2011
Delivered September 17, 2011
VIN # 007166

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Randy
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:55 pm

I'll add a fourth choice - host participation. The hardware may be low/no cost, but it's about finding willing hosts to pay the up-front installation costs as well as the ongoing operational costs. Will revenue from users cover these costs? For some installations, it could, but for others it won't. The business owner/host would have to be willing to subsidize the operation. To me, that's the primary challenge.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:12 pm

Randy; you need to review the West Coast EV Highway Project Parameters.

the only thing the business need provide is 2 parking spaces. the Project will cover 100% of all expenses for the first 3 years. that includes installation, maintenance, site prep, electricity used, etc. the whole 9 yards.

installation and site prep pretty much covers 95% of the long term cost of anything. there is literally no risk to the business.


i think part of it is simply no traction. even among the EV community, there is no unity. on this forum, what is the preferred charging option?

i see people upset that there is no L3 but others are upset that money was spent on L2's as if that money prevented an L3 from being built. the Project provides funding for 310 DCFC stations and most are still up for grabs.

now, yes we have heard that there are several "just around the corner" and have heard that for over 8 months. now; if looking at the overall picture, being 8 months behind is not really all that bad.

what makes it bad is that a... well "several" tentative dates have been mentioned and have come and gone. the official word is now "Spring 2012" which means that it is "just around the corner"

but we also have OR which already has a half dozen of them. TN also does although most of theirs is private business funds... but ya, it does suck but at the same time, i don t think there is some deep dark counter attack happening to derail the project.

it is really a lack of excitement and commitment is how it comes across to me.
44,598 miles on 2011 LEAF (retired) 2013 LEAF;23,340 miles. Ah; 61.94, Hx; 95.82% kwh 20.8 @70% estimate; 120,847 miles
May 2015 Drive Stats. Corolla;646 miles, $59.43, LEAF;1095.8 miles $19.72
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com

EVDrive
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:46 pm

One big issue is that the only reasonably priced QC station in production or planned for production is the one that Nissan plans to sell for 10 k. Nobody in the US has been able to buy one. I was looking on the AV website yesterday and still not a peep about ordering the Nissan QC station and they are supposed to sell and install them. As soon as these are available to buy, there are buyers lined up. I know a few buyers myself that are eagerly waiting. There have been no additional announcements from Nissan about their station in the last 3 months. Hopefully the delay is not with AV.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:14 pm

EVDrive wrote:One big issue is that the only reasonably priced QC station in production or planned for production is the one that Nissan plans to sell for 10 k. Nobody in the US has been able to buy one. I was looking on the AV website yesterday and still not a peep about ordering the Nissan QC station and they are supposed to sell and install them. As soon as these are available to buy, there are buyers lined up. I know a few buyers myself that are eagerly waiting. There have been no additional announcements from Nissan about their station in the last 3 months. Hopefully the delay is not with AV.



I'll be happy to bet you that you will NEVER see those $10,000 chargers from AV. You can buy the Andromeda unit right now for about $17,000. Price will go up to $25,000 in the next few months.

Full power (50kW) and portable. Made in California.
JAMP JR tm, the low cost 40 amp J1772 charge station
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JLongtm the J1772 extension cord
JdeMOtm, the CHAdeMO outlet for your electric car
JDaptortm, the J1772 power outlet

www.QuickChargePower.com

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ElectricVehicle
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:00 pm

Talk to the people who are administering the DC Fast Charger (Quick Charger, QC) installation grants and see what their issues are. Then you can start to help them, with other WA LEAF drivers to get those solved.

In Northern CA, we have verified construction started on a couple QC sites. We should see a couple sites going operational in April. There's another, maybe 2 dozen we could have in Northern CA if we can identify sites willing to host a QC by June or so. I'm not sure what happens after June, if the grant money goes away or can be renewed.

Finding a QC site, getting the agreement signed, pulling permits, etc. is a long complex process that can run into issues. There's issues like advertising for chargers that have displays and who gets the revenue for it. There's the energy charge and demand charges for electricity.

It's interesting to look at the CHAdeMO site and see the lists of installed sites - Huge in Japan, a bunch in Western Europe, some in Texas and Chicago, with CA and WA lagging. They ARE coming in CA. I'm less familiar with the situation in WA, I suspect they should start popping up there over the next few months to year. As drivers, we can help with identifying sites and helping the parties understand the contracts. We can also do some things that the charger proivider or host site can't do as effectively - like asking cities to speed up QC permit applications or even install QCs, or lobby the local politicians - city councils, mayor, etc.

There's quite a bit of activity in Palo Alto CA right now to get some QCs put in by the city and a few from a charging provider. Without the efforts of LEAF owners, the city would not be putting in the QCs. In part, because it didn't really occur to them to do so. There's some familiarity with adding level 2 charging to development projects but much less for QCs. That's one of several areas where we can come in and make things happen!

They'll likely be a fair backorder for the Nissan $10k QCs. They ARE coming! Watch for them in the next couple months.
Blue Nissan Leaf SL+QC rsrvd 4/21/10 order 11/24/10 delivered 5/29/11 (Apr May Jun Jul Jun May Jun) Polar Bear Hug 12/11/2010
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It's time to LEAF! LEAF Oil behind!

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:13 pm

WA State has em coming from two different directions. the EV Highway Project is installing like 40? or 50 in the Seattle area by Ecotality. then Gregoire decided to expand the coverage from border to border and went to Aeroenvironment (the other guys) to commission 9 more to cover I-5 from Canada to Oregon.
44,598 miles on 2011 LEAF (retired) 2013 LEAF;23,340 miles. Ah; 61.94, Hx; 95.82% kwh 20.8 @70% estimate; 120,847 miles
May 2015 Drive Stats. Corolla;646 miles, $59.43, LEAF;1095.8 miles $19.72
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com

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ElectricVehicle
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:39 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:WA State has em coming from two different directions. the EV Highway Project is installing like 40? or 50 in the Seattle area by Ecotality. then Gregoire decided to expand the coverage from border to border and went to Aeroenvironment (the other guys) to commission 9 more to cover I-5 from Canada to Oregon.
Have you gotten any information on timelines and any grant expiration dates, if there are any expiration dates? It's long overdue for WA and CA to pass Texas in QC deployments!!! Just ask Jay Inslee.
Blue Nissan Leaf SL+QC rsrvd 4/21/10 order 11/24/10 delivered 5/29/11 (Apr May Jun Jul Jun May Jun) Polar Bear Hug 12/11/2010
1999 Green GM EV1, 7.2kW Solar Electric (PV); 2002 RAV4 EV; Carbon Neutral since 2010
It's time to LEAF! LEAF Oil behind!

Desertstraw
Posts: 250
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:36 am

There is no source of reliable information about quick chargers. Here is a post on this website:
Forum Supporter
Leaf Number: 1855
I called Bell Ford and Riverview Toyota and both said the DCQCs will be online in a week or so. Both said they are going to charge what it costs them for the juice, but neither had any idea what it would be yet.

Other people have used the quick charger at Blink headquarters in Phoenix during its testing phase.

There are some reports of operational quick chargers in Tennessee. But, I can find no really dependable information. A call to Leaf CS was fruitless.

As of my now, I am treating the delay in quick chargers as much like the delays in the delivery of Leafs. I got mine six months after the first delivery promise.

To me the crucial need for wide adoption of EVs is quick chargers every 40 miles on Interstates. Compared to other investments in electric cars, this would not be a great expense. As soon as people start reporting trips from New York to California in reasonable time, the public will look upon electric vehicles as first cars.

Should Envia deliver on its promise of 300 mile batteries within two years, quick chargers wont really matter that much. If not Envia, I am convinced that somebody else will do it. Unless electric car technology differs from all other technology in a very few years it will be vastly improved and cheaper.

jkirkebo
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Re: Lack of DC QC Stations – Technical, Political or Greed

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:25 am

Desertstraw wrote:Should Envia deliver on its promise of 300 mile batteries within two years, quick chargers wont really matter that much. If not Envia, I am convinced that somebody else will do it. Unless electric car technology differs from all other technology in a very few years it will be vastly improved and cheaper.


Actually, with a 300 mile battery, I would need the quick chargers even more. A 100-mile battery, like the Leaf has, can easily be recharged during the night or during the workday. A 85kWh battery however can't, at least not with the power levels available here for AC recharging (16A 230V, or 3.7kW). So for long drives I'd have to rely on at least one 1hr QC session per day to fill the car up.

Lack of CHAdeMO compatibility is why I haven't reserved a Model S yet. It can't replace our diesel car without a workable fast charging option. So for now it's VW TDI + Leaf.

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