Charging 220 V at RV Parks?

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electricfuture

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
252
Location
Davenport , FL
I upgraded the 120v portable charger to 220/120 V through evseupgrade.com. I have a Blink charger in my garage connected to its own meter with a low rate schedule and a second meter for household use. Looking at the 220V “dryer” type plug on the ESV unit I realized that the Blink has a different plug. Thus if the Blink is on the blink I would have to plug into my dryer outlet and be charged high rates by SDG&E. So I purchased a NEMA 6-50P to NEMA L6-20R adapter for EVSE Nissan LEAF I found on Ebay. Problem solved.

But then I began thinking where else could I plug in at 220 V? – RV Parks!

A little research showed I need another adapter for 220 V RV park and boat dock connections:
“NEMA 14 Adapter from EVSEadapters.com — $39
Made with extra-heavy-duty 10 gauge cable. Features molded NEMA 14 plug on one end and NEMA L6-20 twist-lock receptacle on the other end.
The 14–30 is commonly used for electric clothes dryers, and the 14–50 for electric cooking ranges. NEMA 14–50 outlets are also frequently found in many RV parks and campgrounds, since they are used for shore power connections of larger recreational vehicles.”

Thus I am thinking that there is a vast network of available charging stations all along the highway system – albeit having to wait 5 hours to go another 70-80 miles.

Has anyone recharged at an RV park?
 
Electricfuture,
If you're going to be at the Hamburger Factory on the 25th, I'd be happy to show you my bag of all the adapters I've made to connect to the LEAF modified EVSE...I think I have one of every type that could be used...
 
Well, well, well, so RV Parks are ready for us! I think we have a winner for the LA-SD commute! Install Nissan QCs next to the existing pedestals that already have 220V AC power. Clearly the average 220 V pedestal can handle the power transfer requirements.

So, what if we talk to an RV park owner on the fringe of Camp Pendleton about installing a Nissan 220 v DC QC? No permit required, 2 feet of conduit and a mounting pad for installation, security already there, charging costs already established.

$10 for a 4 hour charge probably like the East Coast won't work here at 220 V AC, but what about $10 for a 30 minute charge at 240v DC?

This could happen very fast – especially if we could convince Nissan to “donate” one charger to demonstrate the Leaf’s capability. This would be a massive PR plug for them!

I'll be at the meeting to look at the adapter connectors!
 
charged at RV parks several times last year but did the plain ole 120 and why not? we were camping. we plugged in charged until we had to go somewhere like into town for souvenirs, more "refreshments" or whatever. its not like we were in a rush to go. the shortest camping trip we did was meeting someone Friday afternoon and leaving Saturday night (i work Sunday) but was only 35 miles one way so way more than enough time to recharge and do side trips while there.
 
electricfuture said:
Well, well, well, so RV Parks are ready for us! I think we have a winner for the LA-SD commute! Install Nissan QCs next to the existing pedestals that already have 220V AC power. Clearly the average 220 V pedestal can handle the power transfer requirements.

So, what if we talk to an RV park owner on the fringe of Camp Pendleton about installing a Nissan 220 v DC QC? No permit required, 2 feet of conduit and a mounting pad for installation, security already there, charging costs already established.

$10 for a 4 hour charge probably like the East Coast won't work here at 220 V AC, but what about $10 for a 30 minute charge at 240v DC?

This could happen very fast – especially if we could convince Nissan to “donate” one charger to demonstrate the Leaf’s capability. This would be a massive PR plug for them!

I'll be at the meeting to look at the adapter connectors!
Click to expand...
First off, power at the RV parks would either be 208 or 240vac, not 220, as that hasn't been used for the better part of a century. Also, the RV pedestals can only deliver 50A @ 240V usually, which is only 12kW, and a QC needs over 4 times that much! Not to say it couldn't be installed, but it's substantially more involved than you imply. Thirdly, the QC outputs much more than 240vdc when charging the Leaf, usually around 300-400vdc.

-Phil
 
Thanks Phil for the insight. Sorry I didn't nail the voltage rating - having worked overseas for years the various ratings sometimes run together in my head (308 AC at 50 cycles anyone?). However, you do agree this is doable maybe with a trickle charged ultracap buffer to mitigate the demand surge SDG&E are using as a penalty. Breaker capacity at their distribution board is probably sufficient.

But these are only minor technical problems - applying off the shelf hardware and control circuits including Nissan's charging unit. (Application engineer speaking here.)

The so far insurmountable problems have been establishing a QC station infrastructure working with government agencies, local utilities, permitting issues, access issues, legal issues, liability issues, unit security from vandalism, payment issues including WiFi connections for credit card transfers, network interface issues as in getting Blink and other networks to buy in, location issues along major corridors, leasing/buying property accessible off major road systems, unit maintenance, etc.

All these problems go away if RV Park operators can be convinced to place a unit in their park. Instant QC infrastructure!

You spec out the hardware and I can give you a constructible detailed design! But don't ask me to go to Congress - Please!

Let’s make this happen!
 
Electricfuture; i see your point.

we have a solar charging station in Eastern WA that powers 12 L2 stations. now, how difficult would it be to make it 3 or 4 L3 stations with a battery storage backup for queuing purposes.

i think it can be done when someone decides it will benefit them to provide this option and that day will come. keep in mind (i know its hard since we have been driving our Leafs so long now) the EV thing has barely made it out of the starting gate.

its funny but that solar charging station has only been used by Plug in Priuses because a Leaf cant make it out there
 
Randy said:
Electricfuture,
If you're going to be at the Hamburger Factory on the 25th, I'd be happy to show you my bag of all the adapters I've made to connect to the LEAF modified EVSE...I think I have one of every type that could be used...
Click to expand...

Hee, hee.. I've got one you don't have!
 
TonyWilliams said:
Randy said:
Electricfuture,
If you're going to be at the Hamburger Factory on the 25th, I'd be happy to show you my bag of all the adapters I've made to connect to the LEAF modified EVSE...I think I have one of every type that could be used...
Click to expand...

Hee, hee.. I've got one you don't have!
Click to expand...


well, fess up!! we need pictures!
 
I contacted an RV park in Escondido (North San Diego County) and learned they have 240 V separately metered connection posts. They charge $0.15 per KWH and cannot charge more by law, so adding a QC does not make financial sense to them unless "convenience" charges are added to the electric rate. They are raising it to "corporate" to see if there is an interested.

I am also contacting the D.O.E. Electrical Vehicle Program Dept. to see if they could supply free QCs to willing RV park owners as an incentive to kick start a national network of QCs along major roadways. The RV Park would just pay the installation/maintenance costs. I am thinking just 100 strategically located QCs up the West and East Coast and along the Southern states would jump start the program at low initial costs.

It is also VERY possible that Nissan will donate QCs as they recent have done in Europe to get the network started:

http://www.care2.com/causes/nissan-gives-away-400-ev-quick-charge-stations-in-europe.html

Then a web site could be developed (or an existing one modified) listing the RV parks with QCs, their rates, and amenities (coffee shop/rest room/picnic tables, barbeque pits, etc.)

This will be a discussion item at the San Diego meeting Feb. 25th.
 
electricfuture said:
They charge $0.15 per KWH and cannot charge more by law
Click to expand...

This is an interesting statement. Did the campground indicate that 1) they would allow you to plug in without renting an overnight space from them and 2) that they already had a set rate of $0.15/KWh?

Those would both be good things. Speculation here in the long ago past presumed that the only way to plug in would be to rent a space (and probably not tell them that you planned to charge your car), as the campground owner would not understand enough about an EV to understand how their infrastructure could interface with the car.
 
Did the campground indicate that 1) they would allow you to plug in without renting an overnight space from them and 2) that they already had a set rate of $0.15/KWh?
Click to expand...

I managed to discuss this with DOE Electric Vehicles Division and Ecotality.

DOE’s response is as follows:

Your suggestion to use the electrical infrastructure that already exists at RV parks to help with the deployment of fast-charging infrastructure for EVs is an interesting one, and your points about the amenities available at RV parks that are conducive to an enjoyable 30-minute charge are well taken. However, I'm not sure that the use of RV parks would address the issues that you outline below. For example, the DC Fast Chargers (DCFCs) with which I'm familiar require a 480V, 3-phase AC input (not the 240V AC power that you mention is already available at the RV parks). I'm assuming that we're referring to the same thing when I say DCFC, and you say QC (i.e., the charger that utilizes the optional larger CHAdeMO connector on the front of your Leaf, not the J1772 connector).

Your experience with permitting issues and demand charges is also not unusual. However, most municipalities require a permit for the installation of an AC Level 2 (240V) charger (both residential and commercial), or a DC Fast Charger (480V), even if the supply infrastructure already exists. I'm not aware of any differences in permitting issues that would apply to RV parks.

Additionally, the demand charge that utilities require is not specific to California, nor is it specific to EV charging infrastructure. Most utilities collect demand fees for any peak demand above 20kW, on the order of about $30/kW/month. Thus, for a 50kW DCFC, the site host might face a $900/month charge on top of the per-kWh cost of energy. This is designed to compensate the utility for the dispatchable resources required to supply that demand. You are correct that a storage device is an option to get around the utility demand chargers, but the storage required to do this is often large and therefore expensive as well.

Furthermore, I should mention that, unlike a 240V AC Level 2 charger (which simply passes AC current to the vehicle, where there is an on-board battery charger typically of 3.3kW), a DCFC (compatible with the Nissan Leaf) is actually an off-board charger. (The DCFC does the AC-to-DC conversion, and supplies DC to the vehicle.) This equipment is not inexpensive - Nissan has announced a price of $10k for their "low-cost" DCFC, which is not yet commercially available.

As you are likely aware, ECOtality North America's "EV Project", which DOE supports through American Recovery and Reinvestment Act funds, is deploying approximately 225 DC Fast Chargers nationwide, including along the I-5 corridor through California. Through the EV Project, these chargers are being supplied at no cost to the site host, while the host must pay for installation. You can find more information about the EV Project at http://www.theevproject.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I encourage you to reach out to ECOtality, to inquire about the possibility of deploying DC Fast Chargers at RV parks between San Diego and Los Angeles.

I hope this information is helpful, and I applaud your decision to purchase an EV and to participate in your local owners' group.
Best Regards,
David L. Anderson
Technology Development Manager
Vehicle Technologies Program
U.S. Department of Energy
1000 Independence Ave. SW
Room 5G-030
Washington, DC 20585
(202)287-5688
[email protected]
Click to expand...
 
If the RV park has sufficient service, and it's 3-Phase, it doesn't matter if it's 480v or 240v, as a transformer can be employed should the QC demand 480v. I have only personally inspected but one CHAdeMO charger, which is labelled "Eaton", but is actually made by Tepco. It's designed to accept 200v 3-Phase, as it's originally a Japanese-Spec unit and it's presently configured with 208V 3-Phase. It's connected to a 200A circuit, and works fine on this.

Our building is served by 400A 3-Phase 240v service, so I could easily add a QC here, but of course I'd have to eat the demand charges.

My solution to this is to limit the QC to under whatever the building is consuming - 20kW and have that dynamically set by logic in the QC.

-Phil
 
electricfuture said:
I managed to discuss this with DOE Electric Vehicles Division and Ecotality.
DOE’s response is as follows:
Click to expand...
That is one impressive response: detailed, accurate, and extremely knowledgeable. It's good to hear that someone in Washington knows what he is talking about, and has our EV future in his sights.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
electricfuture said:
I managed to discuss this with DOE Electric Vehicles Division and Ecotality.
DOE’s response is as follows:
Click to expand...
That is one impressive response: detailed, accurate, and extremely knowledgeable. It's good to hear that someone in Washington knows what he is talking about, and has our EV future in his sights.

Ray
Click to expand...

Yeah, kinda blows Ragun's stupid "Nine scariest words" quote outta the water!

There you go again! Using facts and figures...
 
planet4ever said:
electricfuture said:
I managed to discuss this with DOE Electric Vehicles Division and Ecotality.
DOE’s response is as follows:
Click to expand...
That is one impressive response: detailed, accurate, and extremely knowledgeable. It's good to hear that someone in Washington knows what he is talking about, and has our EV future in his sights.

Ray
Click to expand...

He got one thing wrong:

...As you are likely aware, ECOtality North America's "EV Project", which DOE supports through American Recovery and Reinvestment Act funds, is deploying approximately 225 DC Fast Chargers nationwide, including along the I-5 corridor through California...
Click to expand...

It's very frustrating that all the participants in the BEV roll-out seem to recognize the obviously essential role of completing the I-5 DC charge corridor through California, but there are no fast chargers yet, and not even plans to install any, outside of the Bay Area and Southern California urban areas.
 

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