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ElectricVehicle
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San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them sooner

Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:01 pm

This thread is a result of Phoenix's conference call today.
(Announced here viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3415&p=130477#p130477 )

The purpose is to get a few, say 3 to 10, Quick Chargers in the San Francisco Bay Area sooner rather than later and what we can do to help with and acclerate that process.

Discussion of the Vacaville charger should generally stay out of this thread, since it's a long discsussion, that many have worked on and doesn't look like it will be publicly available anytime soon. That detailed discussion is best in it's dedicated thread: Vacaville L3 Chargepoint
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ElectricVehicle
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:12 pm

Here's a bit of research I dug up on the Quick Chargers addressing some of the questions during the call and some updates:

BAAQMD/ECOtality San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers
SAN FRANCISCO – February 2, 2011 – ECOtality, Inc.(NASDAQ:ECTY), a leader in clean electric transportation and storage, announced today that it has expanded The EV Project to the San Francisco Bay Area. ECOtality was awarded a $2.87 million contract from the Bay Area Air Quality Management District (Air District) to become the Project Manager of the organization’s Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) Deployment Program. Through this program, ECOtality will oversee the installation of 2,750 home charging stations and 30 DC fast charging stations throughout the Bay Area.

ECOtality will also implement a DC Fast Charger Program, from a $614,800 Air District award, that will allow the Company to install 20 Blink DC Fast Chargers, out of the 30 total chargers installed throughout the program. The Blink DC Fast Charger is capable of providing a full charge in under 30 minutes.
http://www.ecotality.com/newsletter/201 ... AAQMD.html

Nissan reducing Quick Charger unit hardware cost to $10,000
Nissan Motor Co. revealed what might just be the world's cheapest quick-charge station. Priced below $10,000 and set to go on sale in November, Nissan's newly-developed quick-charge unit takes up significantly less space than most competing Level 3 chargers and is supposedly easier to install, too
Rated input 49kW 3 phase AC200V (or 142 Amps at 200VAC 3 phase -ed)
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/13/ni ... k-charger/

350Green's SF Bay Area DC Quick Charge project
350Green's pilot project in the San Francisco Bay Area calls for the installation of DC fast-charge stations in six cities: Albany, Menlo Park, Milbrae, Palo Alto, San Francisco, and Sunnyvale. All the chargers will be installed, by June of 2012, in parking areas of select retail locations at no cost to lot owners. Pending a successful trial, 350Green hopes to collaborate with additional U.S. cities to expand its charging network across the nation.
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/02/08/35 ... -chargers/

Technology
350Green’s system is a network of charging stations distributed across a metropolitan area. We offer both Level 2 (220v) and DC Fast (480v) options, depending on location and use. Our PowerDock is a stand-alone unit that offers up to four simultaneous charges. Our Express Plaza can be configured as a standalone unit, or part of a solar carport for maximum energy efficiency and reduced grid load. All Level 2 units offer standard connectors for all electric vehicle types, include full maintenance and instant support from a live, 24/7 help line. When we install two or more fast chargers at a location, we install energy storage to prevent grid overload.

Pricing Plans
350Green offers a range of simple, convenient payment plans that allow EV drivers to have instant access to charging from the moment they buy their vehicle. Account holders can either pay by the charge or by the month, depending on their expected levels of use, and can use any of the 350Green stations in the local, national or global network.
http://350green.com/equipment-2/

eVgo Texas EV charging subscription with Quick Chargers
For reference, this is the EV charging network subscription service in Texas, to get an idea of the economics of that model.

eVgo’s charging plans feature flat monthly rates. The company recommends the “complete” package, which happens to be the most expensive ($89), but also offers the most features. This includes the home installation cost (home charging dock and equipment), the home electricity cost, a three year service plan, and unlimited charging at eVgo network stations. It also includes unlimited at home charging, with no additional electricity costs during non-peak hours. Installation could get more expensive with custom installations. A customer plugs in the car overnight at home; at the fast-charge station, the customer waves a key fob to start the charging process.
http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/10/tex ... -stations/

MNL Threads on eVgo's first Quick Charger and the pricing plan:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5649
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=4249

See the Vacaville L3 Chargepoint thread for the information on who runs the site, funding, etc. that I just posted.

Quick Charge hardware / units
Plug In America's listing of EV Charger units, including Quick Chargers

Related MNL threads
San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Recommended Locations
L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ? Includes some discussion of the UL listing.
Vacaville L3 Chargepoint

Some grants / projects
US DOE $1 Million grant to CA for EV planning and charging readiness
Last edited by ElectricVehicle on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:18 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:35 pm

Here's a web page that talks about the extra expense of a "Demand Charge" which the 49 kW required for a quick charger would trigger.

It looks like a 49 kW EV charger may trigger $500+ per month in demand electricity charges. I haven't fully analyzed the rate structure to understand all the implications and alternatives, but it's clear, using 49 kW from the grid is non-trivial, something we don't need to worry about with lower power level 2 charging.

https://sites.google.com/site/greenwren ... s-pge-bill
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TonyWilliams
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:45 pm

ElectricVehicle wrote:Here's a web page that talks about the extra expense of a "Demand Charge" which the 49 kW required for a quick charger would trigger.

It looks like a 49 kW EV charger may trigger $500+ per month in demand electricity charges.


$26 per kW here in San Diego, once per month. So, 49kW x 26 = $1274 month one time charge, every month.

KeiJidosha
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:57 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
ElectricVehicle wrote:Here's a web page that talks about the extra expense of a "Demand Charge" which the 49 kW required for a quick charger would trigger.

It looks like a 49 kW EV charger may trigger $500+ per month in demand electricity charges.


$26 per kW here in San Diego, once per month. So, 49kW x 26 = $1274 month one time charge, every month.

SCE GS-2 Summer demand rate is $28.16, $10.16 winter rate.
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:05 pm

Yow! Thanks Tony for the data point! Looks like in the summer on peak monthly demand charges vary by rate and utiltity say in the range of $10 to $25 / kW peak demand per month.

I couldn't tell if there are flat rate commercial electricity rates that don't have the demand charges, though undoubtedly would have a higher $/kWh rate.

Saying it's $10/kW, at 49 kW that's $500 rounded off ($1274 in San Diego as you point out.)

So $500 is a bit of a low ball figure. If you have 100 Quick Charges / month, the demand charge alone is $5 / Quick Charge. That's an average of 3 charges / day, assuming with parking and pluggin in / unplugging, 40 minute per charge, the charger is occupied for 120 minutes or two hours of the day. If there's a single quick charger, every now and then you'd have to wait a few mintues for the previous person to finish up...

If it's only 10 charges / month, demand charge alone is $50 / Quick Charge.

If you guess arbitrarily that most charging would happen during 8 prime hours, that's 12 charge sessions / day or 360 / month. That's $1.40 / QC session demand charge, Say 0.16/kWh * 18 kWh per charge session is $2.88 in peak energy costs - total cost $4.22 (Say $7 in San Diego). Excluding capital and real estate costs, someone would charge you at least $10 (Say $15 in San Diego) to make some money and make it economically viable. Very high usage might work economically... Low usage is going to be a real issue.

I'm really getting sold on the idea of equipping the vehicle with a 20kW on board charger and using high power J1772 at 80A, 240V for charge that's half as fast as quick charge but less expensive and 10,000 locations in CA, instead of 1,000 Quick chargers. We have several dozen J1772 at 70A, 240V (or close to it) that the Tesla uses and they are getting converted to J1772. No need for 3 phase service, etc...

Of course that means getting the LEAF 3.3 kW on board charger upgraded to 20 kW which likely won't happen for our first gen LEAFs but when I think about rolling out infrastructure for the future, that seems like something that cna be done oin many more places at lower costs than a much larger battery or Quick Charge stations, and maybe we have Quick Charge stations also but LEAF onboard charger of at LEAST 12 kW if not 20 kW just seems like an imperative to me to greatly expand the utility of the vehicle at a reasonable cost. The onboard charger of that power level could probably be a $1,000 to $2,000 cost, a little less if you excldue the cost of the current 3.3 kW we already paid for.
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KeiJidosha
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:29 pm

ElectricVehicle wrote:I'm really getting sold on the idea of equipping the vehicle with a 20kW on board charger and using high power J1772 at 80A, 240V for charge that's half as fast as quick charge but less expensive and 10,000 locations in CA, instead of 1,000 Quick chargers. We have several dozen J1772 at 70A, 240V (or close to it) that the Tesla uses and they are getting converted to J1772. No need for 3 phase service, etc...

Of course that means getting the LEAF 3.3 kW on board charger upgraded to 20 kW which likely won't happen for our first gen LEAFs but when I think about rolling out infrastructure for the future, that seems like something that cna be done oin many more places at lower costs than a much larger battery or Quick Charge stations, and maybe we have Quick Charge stations also but LEAF onboard charger of at LEAST 12 kW if not 20 kW just seems like an imperative to me to greatly expand the utility of the vehicle at a reasonable cost. The onboard charger of that power level could probably be a $1,000 to $2,000 cost, a little less if you excldue the cost of the current 3.3 kW we already paid for.

+1
The more I find out about the economics of public charging, especially QuickCharge, the more I want a faster on board charger. 6.6kW gives basic utility, 12kW works well, 19.2kW adds over a mile of range per minute. The 3.3kW charger is a liability.

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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:52 pm

KeiJidosha wrote:The more I find out about the economics of public charging, especially QuickCharge, the more I want a faster on board charger. 6.6kW gives basic utility, 12kW works well, 19.2kW adds over a mile of range per minute. The 3.3kW charger is a liability.


If the JPL report on capacity fade I read recently had any relevance to the Leaf, charging with 0.5C (12kW) could be beneficial for long-term battery health too. This means, that a 10 kW charger would not only be faster, it could be a better fit overall. I like the concept of quick charging, and it's a shame that this important aspect of Nissan's strategy is not getting much traction is the US. The Leaf with its slow onboard charger falls way short of its potential.

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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:57 pm

I didn't know about this call today but I am excited to help with this important effort. We have talked about it in the past but lost momentum.
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them soone

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:10 pm

It sounds like the Quick Chargers are coming, but not as quick as I know we all would like. Hopefully all the inquiries we are sending are working to speed up the process.
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