ClipperCreek LCS-25P not UL Listed?

I got a good deal on a used one of these and according to the manual, the model with the 14-50P plug is *not* UL listed, just the two 30A-plugged models are. Odd but I guess it relates to the matching outlet being (most likely) protected by a breaker larger than 30A (i.e. 40A or 50A). I.e. if there's a fault in the charger itself, that larger breaker won't protect it as well as a 30A breaker from catching fire.

This makes me wonder if I have anything to worry about insurance-coverage-wise. You hear the warnings about a fire being started by a non-UL-listed device, and the resulting insurance claim being denied because of the lack of UL listing for the responsible device.

I don't have the 14-50R outlet installed yet, and am considering protecting it with a 30A breaker instead of 50A. But I hear that's against electrical code (40A is okay though from what I hear).

I could also install a 30A outlet (and matching breaker), then use an adapter from the 50A plug to that. But that won't magically add a UL listing to this charger.

Swapping out the 50A cord/plug for a 30A cord/plug seems like yet another option, but again I won't gain a UL listing just by doing that.

Hoping someone here can shed some light on this situation . . . I wonder what ClipperCreek expects their buyers to do . . . maybe that's why this model was discontinued . . . ?

Insurance claims being denied is a myth continually spread around the internet. Insurance covers stupidity. Normally, for a claim to be denied, there has to be evidence of an intentional act by the insured to cause damage. If there's any concerns, read your policy or contact your insurance agent.

UL listing is no guarantee of safety, and only matters if it is required somewhere in the process (like for a government rebate or local code). Just make sure the outlet is properly installed according to code required by the local jurisdiction, which means getting a permit if required. If you do not modify the EVSE, and connect it to a properly installed outlet using the factory provided cord, you should have no issues.

baustin said:

UL listing is no guarantee of safety, and only matters if it is required somewhere in the process (like for a government rebate or local code).

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Local code requires UL listing for EVSEs.

bobkart said:

I don't have the 14-50R outlet installed yet, and am considering protecting it with a 30A breaker instead of 50A. But I hear that's against electrical code (40A is okay though from what I hear).

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For branch circuits with only one receptacle, the requirement is that the receptacle rating be not less than the breaker rating. So one 50A receptacle on a 30A branch circuit is fine. If you were putting multiple receptacles on the circuit (e.g. so you could move a single piece of equipment around), then a 30A branch circuit would require 30A receptacles.

bobkart said:

Swapping out the 50A cord/plug for a 30A cord/plug seems like yet another option, but again I won't gain a UL listing just by doing that.

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No, but Clipper Creek could do that and it would be UL listed. I've heard they are happy to service their equipment like that, not sure if the price would be reasonable or not.

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks everyone for their insights. I see that there *is* an ETL listing for my model, so I feel better about the lack of UL listing (ETL being a NRTL).

Next area some of you might be able to help with is: I was looking around my breaker box (in the garage) and noticed many blank covers around it, so I opened each one up to have a look. One of them was effectively a breakout box (two gang) for both the 30A circuit to my dryer (opposite corner of the house) and the 40A circuit to my oven (i.e. two sets of three pairs of wires nutted together, red/white/black).

What I'm hoping is that there's a way to avoid having to run a new circuit by (somehow) sharing one of these circuits (I only have one unused breaker slot, but will need two slots for a new breaker, thus requiring some merging of low-load circuits into half-width breakers). I get that I can't load these 30A/40A circuits beyond their capacities. Given that I only need a 30A circuit, sharing with the dryer might be an option (notwithstanding electrical codes).

Is something as simple as adding (in the garage) a 30A outlet to the 30A circuit and "only charging the EV when the dryer is not in use" a viable solution? I'm sure I could make it work as I likely only need to charge up about once per week, for 3-4 hours. I've seen answers to similar questions online and often there is a response along the lines of "but what if you forget that the dryer is in use?" I understand that such a situation is not ideal in that regard. But it seems like this is the situation for most 15A circuits in a typical house: it's up to the user to ensure that loads on such circuits stay under their maximums. Are 30A (or higher) circuits different in that regard as far as electrical code is concerned? Maybe something to do with it being a 'dedicated' circuit, and thus not allowing more than one outlet? I've seen the threads here about the Dryer Buddy (basically a metered two-outlet extension cord) which seems to be very close to what I'm asking about.

The other end of the solution spectrum is to add a 50A circuit with 14-50R outlet, possibly protected with a 25-30A breaker (instead of 50A) until my needs increase. But then I might be up against total amperage limits as my main breaker is 100A and my breaker box is rated for 125A maximum. I don't know what my total service amperage is, nor do I know how I can tell. I believe a load study would then be advisable, another reason to try to avoid adding a new circuit.

Hoping someone out there can steer me towards an effective yet not-too-costly solution.

Clipper Creek is correct. Any change requires a re-submission It is nice that they will accommodate customer's requests but realize they are not willing to resubmit the device and pay the big bucks. It is really good that they will put on the plug you request. Any change to an approved unit triggers a new approval. In my opinion this is bullshit but that is how it is.

Thanks Glenn. I'm fine with just an ETL listing for the plug it came with. I read through that 13-page 'EVSEUpgrade Not UL-listed?' thread and get the picture better now.

Now I'm working through my options regarding getting a suitable outlet in the garage (see my previous post).

WetEV said:

baustin said:

UL listing is no guarantee of safety, and only matters if it is required somewhere in the process (like for a government rebate or local code).

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Local code requires UL listing for EVSEs.

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Your local code may require it. It is not required everywhere. This needs to be checked with the local jurisdiction.

You are asking questions that indicate you really should call an electrician. Whether or not it is safe to add another breaker for the EVSE depends on the capacity of and current load on the panel. The size of the main breaker usually indicates service capacity. It is not common to install a 200 amp service and then feed it into a 100 amp panel. The range and dryer circuits are dedicated and you cannot tap into them. The 'Dryer Buddy' type devices connect to the dryer outlet and handle the sharing between the dryer and EVSE.

If the only large loads in the panel are the range and dryer, it should be okay to add a 30 amp breaker for an EVSE. If you have electric heat, electric water heater, or other large loads, you may need a panel and/or service upgrade. You also need to check with the local jurisdiction to see if any of what you are planning requires a permit and inspection. If required, many allow the homeowner to pull the permit and do the work, some require that it be done by a licensed electrician.

Just get the 14-50 installed on a 40 amp circuit, plug in, charge the car, and get on with your day.
You will not go wrong with Clipper Creak. No issues, no worries.

smkettner said:

Just get the 14-50 installed on a 40 amp circuit, plug in, charge the car, and get on with your day.
You will not go wrong with Clipper Creak. No issues, no worries.

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Thanks, that option is definitely at the top of my list.

baustin said:

You are asking questions that indicate you really should call an electrician.

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Definitely. I don't intend for any answers I get here to be used *instead* of calling an electrician, rather so that I'm better aware of my options when I do call them. And I've seen similar discussions where someone says their electrician told them X but it turns out not to be entirely true (according to follow-up posts). The more I can understand the situation ahead of calling an electrician, the less likely something like that will happen.

I have the new charger working now by temporarily adding a 14-50R outlet to the 30A dryer circuit, instead of going on to the dryer. Of course I need to reverse that change before I can use the dryer again . . . this was mostly to confirm that the charger works, while I'm still in the return window for it.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Definitely don't do any long-term charging (long individual charges or many charges) with the setup you have now. It might be safe enough for a 3 hour charge...or not.

Thanks for the warning. I'm tempted to leave my response at that. I've seen disagreements flare up in similar threads (here and at other forums) over what I'm hesitant to post next. Hopefully that doesn't happen this time.

The only difference I'm aware of between this temporary setup and what would be a permanent (code-abiding) version of it is that the 50A receptacle isn't secured to the two-gang wall enclosure (because I need to reverse this change at some point to use the dryer instead of the EVSE). Curious if that's the source of your warning (i.e. someone might touch the ever-so-slightly-exposed wires where they attach to the receptacle), or something else (like inadvertently plugging a more-than-30A load into this temporary receptacle).

By no means am I trying to start a flame war with this question. Granted I'm *not* an electrician, but I feel like I have a decent grasp of things electrical, like wire ampacity and circuit derating. I don't know the NEC to any degree beyond what makes sense to me safety-wise. I'm not sure of course but from what I can tell, securing this receptacle to the two-gang enclosure (and adding a cover plate) would be okay as far as electrical code is concerned (I just wouldn't have any power to my dryer). This is in part based on wwhitney's post: "One 50A receptacle on a 30A branch circuit is fine." The wiring in question is 10AWG solid copper, about three feet long (receptacle is about two feet from the breaker box). It seems like if this wire is good enough for the dryer (about 60 feet away at the opposite corner/floor of the house) it's good enough for a 20A EVSE a few feet away.

I'll definitely be calling an electrician soon . . . so I'm mainly wondering what about the temporary setup might create a hazard beyond the obvious (exposed wiring).

Thanks in advance for not taking offense to my questions.

The primary concern (code and safety issues aside) is a constant load, like an EVSE, should not exceed 80% of the circuit rating. The dryer circuit (breaker and wiring) is rated for 30 amps. Running an EVSE on that circuit, you would want to limit the EVSE draw to 24 amps. The LCS-25P is a 20 amp EVSE intended for use on a 25 amp circuit, so you should not have any load issues while using it on the dryer circuit.

Thanks baustin; that matches my understanding.