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Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:54 pm
by DarkStar
QueenBee wrote:Back in July I was asking about the L1 charging brick. My question stemmed from the Nissan FAQ saying it was 20 amp instead of 15 amp. The customer service rep didn't seem that knowledgeable as he had trouble with my 15/20 and 5-15P vs 5-20P questions I asked. Then I asked why the "trickle charger" was only suggested for emergencies and I got this response which I wonder if it's even true and then if it is true what effect this upgrade has.
Ryan wrote:Trickle charging is unlike the SAE J1772 protocol used for the 220/240 volt 'Level 2' charging. The J1772 standard utilizes communication thru powerline technology to signal that the battery is approaching full capacity, instructing the charging dock to slow the rate of charge to prevent overheating. This will, over the life of the battery, prolong useful capacity. The trickle charger doesn't use this technology, but should not have a substantial effect on the battery capacity if used only occasionally.

Unfortunately this is total bunk. J1772-2010 Level 1 (120 volt) charging (a.k.a. Nissan trickle charging) is exactly the same as J1772-2010 Level 2 (240 volt) charging, except for the voltage difference.

J1772-2010 connector (a.k.a. the nozzle) as 5 pins. Two pins are for the mains voltage (120/240 volts), one pin is for earth ground, one pin is the proximity pin and tells the vehicle there is a cable there, and the last pin is the control pilot pin. The control pilot pin "pulses" a signal to the car that says "hey, I've got 12 amps available," the car goes "I would love some," and then via the control pilot the relays are activated in the EVSE and charging begins!

The only reason why Nissan wants to convince us that 120 volt charging should be for emergencies only? To sell $1,000 EVSEs, of course! :D

Seriously though, if you want to do Level 1 charging, please do. There's nothing wrong with it and it won't damage things any faster than Level 2 charging... Enjoy the ride!

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:56 pm
by davewill
QueenBee wrote:Back in July I was asking about the L1 charging brick. My question stemmed from the Nissan FAQ saying it was 20 amp instead of 15 amp. The customer service rep didn't seem that knowledgeable as he had trouble with my 15/20 and 5-15P vs 5-20P questions I asked. Then I asked why the "trickle charger" was only suggested for emergencies and I got this response which I wonder if it's even true and then if it is true what effect this upgrade has.
Ryan wrote:Trickle charging is unlike the SAE J1772 protocol used for the 220/240 volt 'Level 2' charging. The J1772 standard utilizes communication thru powerline technology to signal that the battery is approaching full capacity, instructing the charging dock to slow the rate of charge to prevent overheating. This will, over the life of the battery, prolong useful capacity. The trickle charger doesn't use this technology, but should not have a substantial effect on the battery capacity if used only occasionally.

Total and complete BS. My understanding is that the only signal of capacity goes the other way...the EVSE tells the car the max amperage it can supply. There is no practical way for the EVSE to "limit" the rate of charge, anyway. Besides, the EVSE has ZERO information about the charge state of the vehicle and couldn't know when to do anything like this anyway.

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:45 pm
by LEAFer
It almost sounds like they are confusing L1/L2 with L3 (DC QuickCharge). :roll:

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:57 am
by Herm
Enginer, have you looked at a Volt's 120V EVSE?.. perhaps it can be modified also so you could have an added source of units to modify. I believe they sell it for $495

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:40 am
by garygid
Last I checked (2010), tge "Voltec" EVSE was being sold ONLY to Volt Owners.

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:14 am
by DarkStar
garygid wrote:Last I checked (2010), tge "Voltec" EVSE was being sold ONLY to Volt Owners.

I just heard you needed a Volt VIN, and those aren't too hard to come by! :D

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:08 am
by Ingineer
QueenBee wrote:Back in July I was asking about the L1 charging brick. My question stemmed from the Nissan FAQ saying it was 20 amp instead of 15 amp. The customer service rep didn't seem that knowledgeable as he had trouble with my 15/20 and 5-15P vs 5-20P questions I asked. Then I asked why the "trickle charger" was only suggested for emergencies and I got this response which I wonder if it's even true and then if it is true what effect this upgrade has.
Ryan wrote:Trickle charging is unlike the SAE J1772 protocol used for the 220/240 volt 'Level 2' charging. The J1772 standard utilizes communication thru powerline technology to signal that the battery is approaching full capacity, instructing the charging dock to slow the rate of charge to prevent overheating. This will, over the life of the battery, prolong useful capacity. The trickle charger doesn't use this technology, but should not have a substantial effect on the battery capacity if used only occasionally.

This is absolutely false! All J1772 does is deliver the power to the car as-is, but letting the car (where the actual charger is on-board) know the upper limit of AC power it can safely drain. As I've mentioned many times before, the EVSE is basically just a charge cord, the real smarts are in the car's on-board charger.

-Phil

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:12 am
by Ingineer
Herm wrote:Enginer, have you looked at a Volt's 120V EVSE?.. perhaps it can be modified also so you could have an added source of units to modify. I believe they sell it for $495


Yes, we are currently investigating this.

I'll be sure to let everyone know when we come up with something.

And don't call me "Enginer", that's a Plug-in kit for the Prius! =)

-Phil

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:16 pm
by QueenBee
Ingineer wrote:
Ryan wrote:Trickle charging is unlike the SAE J1772 protocol used for the 220/240 volt 'Level 2' charging. The J1772 standard utilizes communication thru powerline technology to signal that the battery is approaching full capacity, instructing the charging dock to slow the rate of charge to prevent overheating. This will, over the life of the battery, prolong useful capacity. The trickle charger doesn't use this technology, but should not have a substantial effect on the battery capacity if used only occasionally.

This is absolutely false! All J1772 does is deliver the power to the car as-is, but letting the car (where the actual charger is on-board) know the upper limit of AC power it can safely drain. As I've mentioned many times before, the EVSE is basically just a charge cord, the real smarts are in the car's on-board charger.

-Phil


Good, after reading about this upgrade and how the EVSE's work I started wondering how it could be any different. I tried getting the customer service people on the Nissan Leaf chat to confirm that I was given the wrong information but instead I just kept getting a head bobble. I couldn't even get him to answer a simple question like "Does the level 1 charger plug into a 15 amp outlet?" I asked over and over and each time got different answers but never got the correct answer of Yes, 15 amp outlet is OK as long as nothing else major is connected to the circuit.

"20 amp dedicated outlet"
"Nissan recommends a 20 Amp dedicated service"
"Nissan recommend's a 20Amp dedicated service if you choose to plug into a 15Amp service the results are your responsibility"
"the recommendation for charging your battery is to use a 20Amp dedicated service on the level 1 charger"

Then I asked if it was NEMA 5-15P or 5-20P and after about 10 minutes I received "im checking my reference materials to give you an accurate answer\"

Re: Nissan L1 EVSE third-party upgrade to both 120V and 240V

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:20 pm
by EVDRIVER
QueenBee wrote:
Ingineer wrote:
Ryan wrote:Trickle charging is unlike the SAE J1772 protocol used for the 220/240 volt 'Level 2' charging. The J1772 standard utilizes communication thru powerline technology to signal that the battery is approaching full capacity, instructing the charging dock to slow the rate of charge to prevent overheating. This will, over the life of the battery, prolong useful capacity. The trickle charger doesn't use this technology, but should not have a substantial effect on the battery capacity if used only occasionally.

This is absolutely false! All J1772 does is deliver the power to the car as-is, but letting the car (where the actual charger is on-board) know the upper limit of AC power it can safely drain. As I've mentioned many times before, the EVSE is basically just a charge cord, the real smarts are in the car's on-board charger.

-Phil


Good, after reading about this upgrade and how the EVSE's work I started wondering how it could be any different. I tried getting the customer service people on the Nissan Leaf chat to confirm that I was given the wrong information but instead I just kept getting a head bobble. I couldn't even get him to answer a simple question like "Does the level 1 charger plug into a 15 amp outlet?" I asked over and over and each time got different answers but never got the correct answer of Yes, 15 amp outlet is OK as long as nothing else major is connected to the circuit.

"20 amp dedicated outlet"
"Nissan recommends a 20 Amp dedicated service"
"Nissan recommend's a 20Amp dedicated service if you choose to plug into a 15Amp service the results are your responsibility"
"the recommendation for charging your battery is to use a 20Amp dedicated service on the level 1 charger"

Then I asked if it was NEMA 5-15P or 5-20P and after about 10 minutes I received "im checking my reference materials to give you an accurate answer\"



Don't contact Nissan CS about tech issues, that's like calling customer service on an ICE car and asking about the timing settings or valve adjustments. Stick to answers form those on the forum with proper knowledge.