Something people NEED to understand about EVSEUpgrade for 2015-2017....

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

cdherman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
182
Location
Kansas City, Missouri
I will make a slightly longer story out of this so that its clear why I am posting and mildly annoyed at EVSEupgrade. First, the company and its proprietor have made fabulous contribution to this site and EV charging in general. When I bought my first Leaf in 2012, the upgrade to my 120V EVSE was a great idea and was probably the cheapest 240v solution on the market, and remained that way for years.

So when I bought my 2016, I hardly thought twice about sending my new 2016 unit off to EVSEupgrade for the upgrade. Their site said it required a 30A circuit. This to me meant that it could charge at least somewhat over 16A (20A circuit derated). Otherwise, why stick a 30A plug on it.

I did not explore the many other 240v portable charging options out there.

Here is why you should explore other solutions:

1) Although the 2016 "upgrade" uses the L6-30 plug capable of 30A 240v use, in fact it cannot draw more than 16A. This means in can be used on a 20A service. Many other cheaper 240V portable devices cost less than the upgrade, especially if you factor in shipping twice.

2) The website is deceptive in stating that a 30A circuit is required. In fact, they should make it much clearer that they deliver a product only capable of 16A, where a 20A service would suffice. They have since clarified to me that "since most users install a 30A circuit anyhow, they put the 30A plug on because of "standardization", and not because its needed."

3) Buying a second 240v portable unit from a different vendor for less $$ allows you to have two EVSE devices. Keep the Nissan as a backup.

4) Especially pay attention to this if you are leasing!!!! This way you can return the Nissan original undamaged at lease end.


At the end of the day, perhaps this information was available in some other thread. Searches, even after the fact, did not reveal it though. There are other references to the 2013-2014 units which CAN be used at up to 20A 240v. We all need to be much clearer about what you will get when you have them upgrade the 2015-2017 units!!!

Let my mistake be good information for future buyers.

Finally, I will plead to the admins to NOT just add this to some other thread. This site is nearly un-useable at times because of threads with 30 pages of posts that have veered off topic and had other issues tacked on again and again. Just my opinion.....
 
Interesting, I also thought all their upgrades were to 20a @240v(like my '13 upgrade was). I agree, for $299 shipped you could have gotten a portable EVSE like my Ebusbar which does 16a at not only 240v but also 120v, a evseupgraded EVSE requires a $25 adapter to allow more than 12a @120v, I wasn't too happy about that with my '13.
Oh I just looked at the EVSEupgrade website and to me it's pretty clear that the newer ones top out at 16a and not 20a like the earlier units but I agree if you had previously had one upgraded to 20a @240v you might assume the new ones also go to 20a, especially since they have the 30a L6-30 plug.
I wonder why the new ones can only be upgraded to 16a :? I wonder if they are using cheaper parts or wiring that can only go to the lesser 16a.....Phil definitely errors on the side of caution so there must be a reason for it.
 
My understanding is that it was Nissan's EVSE supplier who cheaped out on thinner wires for the newer units. Phil simply limited his upgrade to what the wires could reasonably supply.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
My understanding is that it was Nissan's EVSE supplier who cheaped out on thinner wires for the newer units. Phil simply limited his upgrade to what the wires could reasonably supply.

Note that I did not say anything specifically negative about Phil or EVSEUpgrade. They did me very good with my 2012. Its just that the 2015-2017 units now don't offer some of the advantages of earlier upgrades. I think people need to do their research. I did not, basically relying on prior experience. I am bummed that I do not have a portable unit capable of anything over 16A -- I had big plans for some extended travel with my 2016 Leaf and at this point, I will be limited to 16A charging. No real other solutions that I can figure out. At least ones that are affordable.
 
No I didn't think you were slamming Phil, you were just stating the differences. Note weren't you also limited to 16a with your '12 Leaf? I know mine only charges up to 16a max @240v and a paltry 12a @ 120v! Funny thing is my upgraded '12 EVSE puts out 19a @ not only 240v but also 120v (both when hooked to a '13 Leaf with 6.6kw charger) while my upgraded '13 EVSE only puts out 12a @120v but does go up to 20a @ 240v and is adjustable(my '12 is non-adjustable).
You are correct in saying that finding a cheaper 20a EVSE is kind of hard, Amazon sells a few but most are closer to $500 than the $300 a EVSEupgraded EVSE or other 16a portable EVSE goes for. If you don't care about 120v operation ClipperCreek makes a couple nicer models.
 
cdherman said:
...I had big plans for some extended travel with my 2016 Leaf and at this point, I will be limited to 16A charging. No real other solutions that I can figure out. At least ones that are affordable.
Amazon has ClipperCreek HCS-40P - 32 amp portable EVSE for $589. I don't see anything cheaper than that. You can try make your own OpenEVSE kit for slightly, but not much cheaper.
 
AntronX said:
cdherman said:
...I had big plans for some extended travel with my 2016 Leaf and at this point, I will be limited to 16A charging. No real other solutions that I can figure out. At least ones that are affordable.
Amazon has ClipperCreek HCS-40P - 32 amp portable EVSE for $589. I don't see anything cheaper than that. You can try make your own OpenEVSE kit for slightly, but not much cheaper.

I have a Clipper Creek HCS-25 (20 amp) that I made portable by adding a 30/50 amp plug with the neutral pin omitted, and shrink tube over the armored cable.
 
AntronX said:
cdherman said:
...I had big plans for some extended travel with my 2016 Leaf and at this point, I will be limited to 16A charging. No real other solutions that I can figure out. At least ones that are affordable.
Amazon has ClipperCreek HCS-40P - 32 amp portable EVSE for $589. I don't see anything cheaper than that. You can try make your own OpenEVSE kit for slightly, but not much cheaper.

This is indeed what I should have bought. I now that I will be driving EVs for the rest of my life, a robust portable unit with some future "headroom" for less than $300 more than the upgrade.

Think of it this way:

$589 = 2 units, one original Nissan and one new ClipperCreek HCS-40P 32A

$320 approx. = 1 unit, now altered so that Nissan would never warranty it and some buyers might be skeptical, tops out at 16A

In fact the "bright idea" might be for 2015-2017 owners to sell their original portable EVSE on ebay to someone who needs one (lost, stolen unit from lease car) for $250 or so, and use the proceeds to fund the ClipperCreek........
 
First post in years ...

I expect to buy a new '16 SV LEAF in the next few weeks and have been digesting the treasure trove of LEAF information on the forum. So first, a big THANKS to all the people who have spent their time to help newbies. Wiring up the garage for something faster than trickle charging is an early priority, and I have narrowed down my choices to Phil's OpenEVSE cable upgrade, a Clipper Creek, or a used EVSE. I did slightly better than the OP since I saw the spec on the website that says (my bold)

Specifications:
Outlet Type: NEMA L6-30R (30A 240V Twist-Lock)
(*optional adapter needed for standard 120v outlet)
Input Voltage: 100-250 volts AC 50/60 HZ
Power output: programmable from 6 to 12/16 amps on 100-167 volts*
programmable from 6 to 16 amps on 168-250 volts

and did not understand why a 30A L6-30R would be limited to 16A. This thread has clarified that the new OEM EVSE's have inferior wiring. :eek:

So....
I'd like to see Phil update his website to highlight the current limit and explain the cause. He also needs to update the sentence that says that the upgraded EVSE will charge up to 3x faster than OEM. Unfortunately, more like 2x now.
 
SageBrush said:
...He also needs to update the sentence that says that the upgraded EVSE will charge up to 3x faster than OEM. Unfortunately, more like 2x now.
Nope, 3x faster is correct. Original is 12A 120V = ~1.1kW DC into the battery. Modded is 16A 240V = ~3.3kW DC.
 
Ebusbar 16a @ both 120v and 240v $299 shipped from Amazon. 18' cable
VegasBrad 16a @ both 120v and 240v $299 + $18 shipping to continental US. 22.5' cable
Go Cable by TonyWilliams 16a @ 240v only, $299 not sure about shipping and currently may be on sale for $249. 25' cable
EVSEupgrade.com 16a @ 240v 12a @ 120v $287 + $25?? shipping both ways. Whatever the cord length of the OEM Leaf EVSE is.


So if you are OK with 16a you have several choices close to $300 or the price of the EVSEupgrade option. If you want to sell your OEM cable to defray costs I'd strongly suggest one that also worked on 120v so you'd have that in case of emergencies, if you plan on still carrying around the OEM cable then maybe 120v operation wouldn't be a concern.
Note for all EVSEs listed you'd either need to purchase a ~$25 adapter cable to be able to use on 120v or in the case of the Ebusbar from Amazon you'd probably have to make your own. I'd personally also suggest replacing the "range" plug on the Ebusbar to the more standard L6-30 but thats your call, doing so may void the warranty, it's possible VegasBrad sells an adapter cable to go from the Ebusbar EVSE's range plug to a L6-30p, he sells lots of adapter plugs and is very willing to make custom builds.

Now if you want more than 16a you'd have to spend closer to $500, Clipper Creek, OpenEVSE, JuiceBox, etc.

Juicebox juicecord 20a @ 240v and 120v $449 shipped 20' cable, WiFi enabled
Clipper Creek 20a @ 240v only, $485 + $21 shipping, 25' cord
Juicebox 40 up to 40a @ 240v and 120v $499 shipped 24' cable
Plastic GE non portable 30a @ 240v at times $399 Amazon other times up to $599 (currently $499) 18' cord
VegasBrad(uses openEVSE) I believe Brad sells basic 40a EVSEs starting ~$399 that would work on 120v and 240v with various cable lengths, basically all are portable.

Lots of other choices, I just highlighted the more common ones and ones that I thought were a good deal for one reason or another. Of the ones I listed probably only the ClipperCreek and GE are UL listed, others may be made to UL specs but don't hold the certificate.
 
SageBrush said:
AntronX, why is the calc not

(240*16)/(120*12) ?

That works out to 2.66x
Because of the inefficiencies of the build in charger. He did say DC "output" to the battery and not AC input to the EVSE :)
 
jjeff said:
SageBrush said:
AntronX, why is the calc not

(240*16)/(120*12) ?

That works out to 2.66x
Because of the inefficiencies of the build in charger. He did say DC "output" to the battery and not AC input to the EVSE :)
Sorry if I am being dense, but wouldn't the charger inefficiency apply to either EVSE ?
 
SageBrush said:
Sorry if I am being dense, but wouldn't the charger inefficiency apply to either EVSE ?
It is perhaps best described as charger overhead, the constant power demand of running the charger coolant pumps, etc. The DC charger output isn't strictly proportional to the input.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
SageBrush said:
Sorry if I am being dense, but wouldn't the charger inefficiency apply to either EVSE ?
It is perhaps best described as charger overhead, the constant power demand of running the charger coolant pumps, etc. The DC charger output isn't strictly proportional to the input.

Cheers, Wayne
Gotcha. I understand that throughput at 240V is a bit more efficient than 120V, although at the low currents and short cabling we are talking about here I presumed it is only a few percent. So I still end up concluding that Phil's statement of 3x higher throughput is incorrect for the 16A EVSE compared to the OEM. Am I wrong ?
 
SageBrush said:
Gotcha. I understand that throughput at 240V is a bit more efficient than 120V, although at the low currents and short cabling we are talking about here I presumed it is only a few percent. So I still end up concluding that Phil's statement of 3x higher throughput is incorrect for the 16A EVSE compared to the OEM. Am I wrong ?
I have no personal knowledge of how high the overhead is. But here's a calculation:

L1 input = 12A @ 120V = 1440W
L2 input = 16A @ 240V = 3840W

What fixed overhead X is required so that L2 output is 3 times L1 output?

(3840-X) = 3 * (1440-X)
2X = 480
X = 240W

So if the "fixed cost" of running the charger is 240W, energy that doesn't go into the battery at all, then the L1 charger output will be 3 times the L2 charger output. 3600W = three times 1200W

Cheers, Wayne
 
AntronX said:
SageBrush said:
...He also needs to update the sentence that says that the upgraded EVSE will charge up to 3x faster than OEM. Unfortunately, more like 2x now.
Nope, 3x faster is correct. Original is 12A 120V = ~1.1kW DC into the battery. Modded is 16A 240V = ~3.3kW DC.


16A @ 240V is 3.8kw not 3.3kw.
 
EVDRIVER said:
AntronX said:
SageBrush said:
...He also needs to update the sentence that says that the upgraded EVSE will charge up to 3x faster than OEM. Unfortunately, more like 2x now.
Nope, 3x faster is correct. Original is 12A 120V = ~1.1kW DC into the battery. Modded is 16A 240V = ~3.3kW DC.


16A @ 240V is 3.8kw not 3.3kw.
He was derating the 3.8 kW AC to 3.3 kW DC
A similar approach with 120V and 16A would be 0.120*16*0.85 = 1.632 kW DC.

I think.
Or is the 16A derated to 12A continuous ?
In that case the 120V solution gives 0.12*12*0.85 = 1.224 kW DC

I'm new at this so take my post with a big dose of salt.
 
Back
Top