NEMA 14-50 Charging

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sault

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I've been hearing some good things about the Clipper Creek chargers on this forum. While I don't have an EV yet, I wanted to get some input on them and see if my charging plan is feasible.

First, I'm looking at getting a charger that can plug into a NEMA 14-50 plug. The best one I've found without looking at the secondhand or homebrew market is the HCS-40P: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40p-32a-240v-charging-25-cord-nema-14-50-plug/

It can go up to 7.7kW, so if I'm tempted to get a Gen II LEAF over the 2016, the 1.1kW higher output will help fill up its larger battery quicker. Secondly, I like the idea of taking the charger with me and allowing access to NEMA 14-50 plugs at RV parks / campgrounds and numerous other places.

My question is, does the ability to plug in at NEMA 14-50 outlets come in that handy? I go camping a few times a year and it would be fun / mind-blowing to take a LEAF camping. Paying a little more for an RV spot is not an issue, and during peak season around here, sometimes they're the only ones available. I've seen some rumblings that KOA and maybe some other camping companies will start opening up their unused RV spots for charging, but nothing is for sure yet. They may be doing this already on a small-scale too. Installation of the plug in my garage isn't a problem either and I've done plenty of electrical work to know how to do it on my own.

Just want to see how this plan might fare in the real world.
 
Actually, no it won't, necessarily. The maximum charge rate is limited by the charger in the vehicle. So regardless of what EVSE is used, the maximum the Leaf will consume is that which is necessary to produce its rated charger output... I doubt that will change from the 6.0Kw in the 2016 Leaf... (FYI, Nissan cheated a little when they changed to the 2013+ charger and rated it based on input power (6.6Kw) versus the 2011-2012 charger that was rated on output power (3.3Kw). Thus, it is not actually twice as fast as the earlier charger....)

sault said:
It can go up to 7.7kW, so if I'm tempted to get a Gen II LEAF over the 2016, the 1.1kW higher output will help fill up its larger battery quicker.
Click to expand...
 
I just built a NEMA 14-50 adapter for a friend to use for plugging his EVSE into for just the scenario you describe: NEMA 14-50 outlets out in the wild. There are not a lot of public charging options here in Kentucky, so having charging access at campgrounds will help him out.

No one knows yet if the extra 1.1kW offered by the HCS-40 will help you out yet, since the specifications for the Gen II Leaf haven't been announced yet. It is a little bit of insurnance/future-proofing, though, and I for one expect the next crop of EVs (Leaf 2, Bolt, Tesla 3) to have 10kW chargers (as options, at least), so going for the 7.7kW EVSE would benefit you some, even if it's not a completely future-proof option. I'd say do it.

If you want to be as future proof as an affordable EVSE can get, look at the JuiceBox- 15kW (60A) for $607.

You already know about 14-50s available at campgrounds. Some other places you can plug into 14-50 outlets can also be found on Plugshare. All sorts of places have 14-50s- Tesla owner's homes, people with welders, my garage, etc. Good luck and happy charging!
 
I put a 14-30/50 convertible plug on my Clipper Creek charging station (the actual charger is in the car), with the unused neutral prong left off so it will plug into both old-stye dryer outlets and 50 amp RV outlets . I will shortly be installing a 30 amp "dryer" type circuit in the garage, and this will let me keep the charging station portable. It remains to be seen if I will actually use it at an RV park...
 
LeftieBiker said:
I will shortly be installing a 30 amp "dryer" type circuit in the garage, and this will let me keep the charging station portable. It remains to be seen if I will actually use it at an RV park...
Click to expand...

I have been using the (old) modified Nissan EVSE Upgrade with a 30 A dryer socket in my garage since the first week I owned my Leaf without any issues.
As to the OP: I wouldn't let a (small) power difference in charging capability alter my buying decision. If you charge overnight (like most people), the car sits idle most of the time anyway.
 
This is a bit off topic, but does anyone know why the NEMA 14-50R won't fit a 6-50 plug? The 6-50 is exactly the same as the 14-50, but with no neutral, so I honestly just assumed that you could plug the former into the latter, no problem (the same way you can plug an ungrounded household plug into a grounded outlet, or a 15-amp plug into a 20-amp outlet). I was about to install a 14-50 in my garage, even though my EVSE has a 6-50 plug, until I actually looked at them and noticed that the 14-50 is much larger! Super annoying.
 
sault said:
My question is, does the ability to plug in at NEMA 14-50 outlets come in that handy? I go camping a few times a year and it would be fun / mind-blowing to take a LEAF camping. Paying a little more for an RV spot is not an issue, and during peak season around here, sometimes they're the only ones available. I've seen some rumblings that KOA and maybe some other camping companies will start opening up their unused RV spots for charging, but nothing is for sure yet. They may be doing this already on a small-scale too. Installation of the plug in my garage isn't a problem either and I've done plenty of electrical work to know how to do it on my own.

Just want to see how this plan might fare in the real world.
Click to expand...

If you are going to install a specific plug on your house for the EVSE, I think this is a good idea.

I also thought this concept would be handy and I purchased a lower power Clipper Creek Charger with the NEMA 14-50 plug. Then I installed an Outdoor 14-50 plug on my house and installed the charger outside. Considering the keyhole mounting slots, it is easy to pull off the wall and take it with me if I so desire. It has worked very well. Though I have only removed the charger once and haven't used it anywhere else but my home. In the South, the network of charging stations is not very good, I felt this was a good idea incase of a hurricane where I needed to evacuate.

I have seen on Plugshare that many RV parks will be happy for you to charge, however they cost the same price as if you are parking an RV for the day so it could be very expensive if you are just wanting to charge for a few hours. But if you are camping anyway then it would work perfect.

Alternately you could just create an adapter for whatever plug you have on your EVSE.
 
pkulak said:
This is a bit off topic, but does anyone know why the NEMA 14-50R won't fit a 6-50 plug? The 6-50 is exactly the same as the 14-50, but with no neutral, so I honestly just assumed that you could plug the former into the latter, no problem (the same way you can plug an ungrounded household plug into a grounded outlet, or a 15-amp plug into a 20-amp outlet). I was about to install a 14-50 in my garage, even though my EVSE has a 6-50 plug, until I actually looked at them and noticed that the 14-50 is much larger! Super annoying.
Click to expand...

The two plugs/receptacles are not interchangeable for the very reasons you find annoying, that is, to prevent inadvertent mixing of different types of circuits, that could cause problems.


A lot of thought went into NEMA plug and receptacle designs over the years, to allow for certain types of interchangeability and to prevent others.

Charles
 
nedfunnell said:
If you want to be as future proof as an affordable EVSE can get, look at the JuiceBox- 15kW (60A) for $607.
Click to expand...

Hello,

It seems this product is not available anymore. Now, their top end EVSE is (40A, 10kW) http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/1605-juicebox-green-40-emissions-optimized-40-amp-evse-with-24-foot-cable/category_pathway-23. Do you know of any other EVSE which would be a good fit for future proofing (Bolt or Leaf Gen2).

Here is my situation. First off, I don't know much about chargers and EVSEs. I am planning to get a Leaf soon (was going to get a 2015 S/QC till I heard about 2016 SV and now waiting for it). I do plan to get a second gen Leaf or a Bolt as well (when they become available). I would like to set up in home charging before I get the first EV. What is my best bet?

I did read good things about Clipper Creek http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product-category/32a-charging/. So what would be a better option between HCS-40 and HCS-40P. Is NEMA 14-50 the only difference? How would that affect me if I am using it only at home?

Lastly, what is the write wire gauge to be used from the mains to the outlet (getting it installed by the electrician but just want to know)?

Any help would be appreciated.
 
inphoenix said:
I did read good things about Clipper Creek http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product-category/32a-charging/. So what would be a better option between HCS-40 and HCS-40P. Is NEMA 14-50 the only difference? How would that affect me if I am using it only at home?
Click to expand...

Yes. I believe the only difference is one is hardwired to your house. The "P" model has a NEMA 14-50 plug (or a NEMA 6-50 if you choose). The plug model can be easily removed and used at another location or the hardwired one would stay put till an electrician removed it. As you pointed out before, a NEMA 14-50 plug model could be easily used at RV parks...
 
pkulak said:
This is a bit off topic, but does anyone know why the NEMA 14-50R won't fit a 6-50 plug? The 6-50 is exactly the same as the 14-50, but with no neutral, so I honestly just assumed that you could plug the former into the latter, no problem (the same way you can plug an ungrounded household plug into a grounded outlet, or a 15-amp plug into a 20-amp outlet). I was about to install a 14-50 in my garage, even though my EVSE has a 6-50 plug, until I actually looked at them and noticed that the 14-50 is much larger! Super annoying.
Click to expand...
In theory, I can't think of any good reason why a 6-50P shouldn't be able to plug into a 14-50R. In practice, however, the 14-XXR outlets were designed such that the neutral pin is the only thing that differentiates between them. So if a 6-50P were the same as a 14-50P without the neutral, as you're suggesting, it would not only be able to plug into a 14-50R but also a 14-30R, and that last possibility is a problem.
 
fooljoe said:
In theory, I can't think of any good reason why a 6-50P shouldn't be able to plug into a 14-50R. In practice, however, the 14-XXR outlets were designed such that the neutral pin is the only thing that differentiates between them. So if a 6-50P were the same as a 14-50P without the neutral, as you're suggesting, it would not only be able to plug into a 14-50R but also a 14-30R, and that last possibility is a problem.
Click to expand...

Ahh, that makes sense. Nema kinda started all over with the 14 series.
 
People buying EVSE's that can supply more current are at best deluded. The EVSE broadcasts the available current but the car charger takes only what it needs.

A first generation Leaf will draw 16A at L2 from a 16A EVSE or a spec max 80A EVSE.

Currently only Tesla and Tesla based cars like my Mercedes B Class EV draw 40A. Everything else is 30A or less. An enhanced Leaf will only draw 27.5A.

You can say you purchased a 40A JuiceBox for your Leaf but is is not going to make the car charge faster. It only future proofs your EVSE.
 
GlennD said:
<span>People buying <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a>'s that can supply more current are at best deluded. The <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a> broadcasts the available current but the car <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=electric%20vehicle%20charger&tag=myelecarmecf-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">charger</a> takes only what it needs.</span>

<span>A first generation Leaf will draw 16A at L2 from a 16A <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a> or a spec max 80A <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a>.</span>

<span>Currently only Tesla and Tesla based cars like my <a href="http://www.mymercedesbenzplugin.com" class="interlinkr">Mercedes<span class="tip">Visit the Mercedes Forum</span></a> B Class EV draw 40A. Everything else is 30A or less. An enhanced Leaf will only draw 27.5A. </span>

<span>You can say you purchased a 40A <a href="http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/?partner_id=903" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">JuiceBox</a> for your Leaf but is is not going to make the car charge faster. It only future proofs your <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a>.</span>
Click to expand...

We know. To say the OP and others who want a high-power EVSE are "deluded" is incorrect and impolite. We're not trying to charge the vehicle faster here, we're trying to be prepared for future EVs with higher-power chargers, as your last phrase notes. It's a considerable advantage to be prepared.

Darryl said:
inphoenix said:
<span>I did read good things about <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=clipper%20creek&tag=myelecarmecf-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">Clipper Creek</a> http://www. href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=clipper%20creek&tag=myelecarmecf-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">ClipperCreek</a>.com/store/product-category/32a-charging/. So what would be a better option between HCS-40 and HCS-40P. Is NEMA 14-50 the only difference? How would that affect me if I am using it only at home?
Click to expand...
</span>

Yes. I believe the only difference is one is hardwired to your house. The "P" model has a NEMA 14-50 plug (or a NEMA 6-50 if you choose). The plug model can be easily removed and used at another location or the hardwired one would stay put till an electrician removed it. As you pointed out before, a NEMA 14-50 plug model could be easily used at RV parks...
Click to expand...

Correct, and this image: http://a6b6a4d850da023e34c0-ffd458871468d7801be60d93d5d79b26.r30.cf2.rackcdn.com/47782.jpg from a PlugShare check-in at an RV park in Corydon IN shows how useful it can be.

inphoenix said:
nedfunnell said:
<span>If you want to be as future proof as an affordable <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a> can get, look at the <a href="http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/?partner_id=903" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">JuiceBox</a>- 15kW (60A) for $607.</span>
Click to expand...

Hello,

<span>It seems this product is not available anymore. Now, their top end <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a> is (40A, 10kW) http://<a href="http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/?partner_id=903" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">eMotorWerks</a>.com/products/online-store/1605-<a href="http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/?partner_id=903" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">JuiceBox</a>-green-40-emissions-optimized-40-amp-<a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a>-with-24-foot-cable/category_pathway-23. Do you know of any other <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a> which would be a good fit for future proofing (Bolt or Leaf Gen2).</span>

<span>Here is my situation. First off, I don't know much about <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=electric%20vehicle%20charger&tag=myelecarmecf-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">charger</a>s and <a href="http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/electric-vehicle-charger/" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">EVSE<span class="tip">Compare EVSE equipment</span></a>s. I am planning to get a Leaf soon (was going to get a 2015 S/QC till I heard about 2016 SV and now waiting for it). I do plan to get a second gen Leaf or a Bolt as well (when they become available). I would like to set up in home charging before I get the first EV. What is my best bet? </span>

<span>I did read good things about <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=clipper%20creek&tag=myelecarmecf-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">Clipper Creek</a> http://www. href="http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=clipper%20creek&tag=myelecarmecf-20" class="interlinkr" target="_blank">ClipperCreek</a>.com/store/product-category/32a-charging/. So what would be a better option between HCS-40 and HCS-40P. Is NEMA 14-50 the only difference? How would that affect me if I am using it only at home?</span>

Lastly, what is the write wire gauge to be used from the mains to the outlet (getting it installed by the electrician but just want to know)?

Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Ah, I didn't know they stopped selling the higher-current one, that's too bad. In your situation, I would go for the Juicebox 40A, and you will probably be good to go for the next-gen EVs- but nobody knows yet how much power they will be able to charge with. I wouldn't get the Clipper Creek HCS-40. It's a little confusing, they name their EVSEs for the amp circuit that's required, not how much current it can supply. The HCS-40 is only able to supply 32A, not 40A. The Juicebox 40 will actually put out full 40A, which I think you want for future-proofness.

40A is good for 9.6kW, and that's a fair guess for what kind of chargers GM/Nissan will equip the Bolt/Leaf 2 with, but we won't know until that's announced. Either of these would need to be installed on a 50A circuit since the NEC requires continuous loads (over 3 hours) to be derated to 80%. So the ideal thing would be a NEMA 14-50 receptacle with an EVSE that has a matching plug. The correct wire to use would be 8 AWG unless you have a really long cable run from the breaker box, in which case 6AWG is better. (For common copper wire with a 75°C insulation rating- lower-rated copper or aluminum conductors would be different)

If you wanted to be REALLY future-proof, there is another option. The Clipper Creek CS-100 is good for up to 80A! It'd require a 100A circuit, which must be hardwired, and would need at least 3AWG cable, and a new subpanel to be installed, if not more.

If it were my money, I'd go for the Juicebox 40 with the NEMA 14-50 plug. I wouldn't even tell the electrician it's for an EV, just that you want a NEMA 14-50R in the garage at such-and-such location, and make sure they don't try and scrimp on wire size.
 
nedfunnell said:
We know. To say the OP and others who want a high-power EVSE are "deluded" is incorrect and impolite. We're not trying to charge the vehicle faster here, we're trying to be prepared for future EVs with higher-power chargers, as your last phrase notes. It's a considerable advantage to be prepared.
Click to expand...

+1. The forums need to be a cordial environment for newbies where they can freely ask questions.

nedfunnell said:
Correct, and this image: http://a6b6a4d850da023e34c0-ffd458871468d7801be60d93d5d79b26.r30.cf2.rackcdn.com/47782.jpg from a PlugShare check-in at an RV park in Corydon IN shows how useful it can be.
Click to expand...

A very good point.


nedfunnell said:
Ah, I didn't know they stopped selling the higher-current one, that's too bad. In your situation, I would go for the Juicebox 40A, and you will probably be good to go for the next-gen EVs- but nobody knows yet how much power they will be able to charge with. I wouldn't get the Clipper Creek HCS-40. It's a little confusing, they name their EVSEs for the amp circuit that's required, not how much current it can supply. The HCS-40 is only able to supply 32A, not 40A. The Juicebox 40 will actually put out full 40A, which I think you want for future-proofness.

40A is good for 9.6kW, and that's a fair guess for what kind of chargers GM/Nissan will equip the Bolt/Leaf 2 with, but we won't know until that's announced. Either of these would need to be installed on a 50A circuit since the NEC requires continuous loads (over 3 hours) to be derated to 80%. So the ideal thing would be a NEMA 14-50 receptacle with an EVSE that has a matching plug. The correct wire to use would be 8 AWG unless you have a really long cable run from the breaker box, in which case 6AWG is better. (For common copper wire with a 75°C insulation rating- lower-rated copper or aluminum conductors would be different)

If you wanted to be REALLY future-proof, there is another option. The Clipper Creek CS-100 is good for up to 80A! It'd require a 100A circuit, which must be hardwired, and would need at least 3AWG cable, and a new subpanel to be installed, if not more.

If it were my money, I'd go for the Juicebox 40 with the NEMA 14-50 plug. I wouldn't even tell the electrician it's for an EV, just that you want a NEMA 14-50R in the garage at such-and-such location, and make sure they don't try and scrimp on wire size.
Click to expand...

First, thanks for a wonderful explanation. As much as I'd like to future proof, the 80A may be an overkill for me at this time. Ideally I wanted to get the 40A JuiceBox but someone pointed out about them not being UL rated. Any thoughts on that?

I am expecting the vehicle in next 2 weeks or so I think it's time to get ready. :)
 

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