Need to Upgrade- Don't understand- 3.3kw or 6.6kw?

We just leased a 2015 Leaf S with quick charge, so we have the capability to do the faster charge, but right now our garage electrical can't even charge the car via trickle charge. So we need to update anyway. We plan to be in this house long term and plan to have electric cars long term. Would it be best to get the electrical updated and an EVSE that can charge at the 6.6kw rate or will that be too expensive right now? Just stick with a 3.3kw one and the update later wouldn't be a big deal? We don't need it to charge SUPER fast, it's more when the battery range is longer, why not have it charge quicker? HELP! I'm looking at this one on amazon-Bosch EL-51253 Power Max 30 Amp Electric Vehicle Charging Station with 18' Cord: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-EL-5125...39345&sr=1-4&keywords=evse&pebp=1418139590492

I'm getting electricians to come out today, so just want to be sure I know what to ask for.
Thanks in advance!
~Hilary

Your 3.3kw is just fine, no need to upgrade and the Bosch Power Max is what I have been using since day one. With the Bosch Power Max you're looking at a 3 to 4 hour charge depending on how low you are. I paid 800.00 for mine with the 25 foot cord. Although thats a good price on Amazon, check on EBay with "EV West" because I have seen them as low as 450.00 there.

Grats on your new Leaf.


Fred

You didn't say how far you drive daily but in general a L2 EVSE is the way to go. I used the L1 for a month and it is just to slow, even driving 30-40 miles a day. Since you are "long term" on both the house and EV then I would go ahead and put in the L2 EVSE. If money is a concern then a 30 amp 240V circuit will do, along with an EVSE that charges at 24 amps, which is 80% of 30 amps in order to meet code. The Leaf can use up to 27.5 amps which would require a 40 amp circuit in order to meet code if you want to charge at that maximum rate. Some people advocate future proofing by spending slightly more on a 40 or 50 amp circuit anyway if your electrical panel can handle it. Up to you.

It'll all boil down to the cost difference for your electrician in installing a 20 amp vs 40 amp feed/breaker to your EVSE. I suggest a 40 amp to future proof.

But if I get this Bosch unit, do I need 20 amp or 40 amp? Will it make a difference in charge time? Older house (1950s) with older electrical, so we may not have room on the breaker to do 'future proofing'. I want to make sure I know what to ask the electrician. The Bosch description on amazon says: voltage 208 VAC to 240 VAC, input/output power 7.2 Kilowatt, input current 30 amperes, breaker size 40 amperes

I still have my Bosch connected to my Dryer 240v connector at 30 Amps, one of these days I will get it hard wired to my commercial 200 amp power box at 40 Amps.

Note: That the 40 Amp Breaker requires heavier gauge wire, I believe its 8 Gauge, someome here will correct me if incorrect. Most 1950's homes do not have the 8 Guage wire to the box.

Read this thread, great price at the Home Depot with discounts:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18703" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Fred

hilarybrogers said:

But if I get this Bosch unit, do I need 20 amp or 40 amp? Will it make a difference in charge time? Older house (1950s) with older electrical, so we may not have room on the breaker to do 'future proofing'. I want to make sure I know what to ask the electrician. The Bosch description on amazon says: voltage 208 VAC to 240 VAC, input/output power 7.2 Kilowatt, input current 30 amperes, breaker size 40 amperes

Click to expand...

40 as per description. Your electrician will inform you as to whether you have enough space on your breaker box. If your main feed is 200 amp, you'll probably be ok. If he can only squeeze in 20amp, then you have your answer and should find an EVSE that only charges up to 3.3kw (Bosch with 12' cord - Bosch EL-51245); or can be modified to reduce output to match breaker size, such as the Siemens Versicharge units.

hilarybrogers said:

Would it be best to get the electrical updated and an EVSE that can charge at the 6.6kw rate or will that be too expensive right now? Just stick with a 3.3kw one and the update later wouldn't be a big deal? We don't need it to charge SUPER fast, it's more when the battery range is longer, why not have it charge quicker? HELP!

Click to expand...

It really depends on your particular situation regarding your electrical panel, the service line coming into your home, and what is called "load calculation".

The electrician should do a load calculation to determine how much extra capacity you have (if any) to add an additional circuit for the EVSE. If you have enough capacity, then there isn't a whole lot of difference in cost between the 40A circuit required for the 6.6kW vs. the 20A circuit needed for 3.3kW EVSE. The main difference would be that thicker wire is required for the higher rate charge -- some extra cost per foot of wire.

The other possibility is that load calculations show you can support a 20A but not a 40A circuit. In which case the 3.3kW EVSE will do fine.

Still another possibility is that load calculations show you can't add any additional circuits because you are using the full capacity of the electrical service into your home. In that case things can get expensive if you have to have the electric company provide a higher-amperage service line to the house. This can involve digging trenches, etc.... Or, you may need to get creative and figure out what circuits in your house you could do without, and then re-purpose for the EVSE.

Don't mean to scare you but wanted to make sure you understand that the "right EVSE" for you can depend on more than just how fast you'd like to charge.

Note: That the 40 Amp Breaker requires heavier gauge wire, I believe its 8 Gauge, someome here will correct me if incorrect. Most 1950's homes do not have the 8 Guage wire to the box, even from the Dryer which is 240v.

You can pick up a 40 Amp Breaker very cheap on EBay, and the wire at the Home Depot, just see where you will have the EVSE mounted and measure distance to the breaker box.

I'm pretty sure we don't have a 200 amp main feed. So a the Bosch with 12' cord will charge well at 3.3kw, and will be a good unit for the next 3+ years? That may be what we need since we probably don't have the 8 guage wire or the space on the breaker box. We don't need more than 12' on the cord, and it's cheaper so may be the way to go.

hilarybrogers said:

I'm pretty sure we don't have a 200 amp main feed. So a the Bosch with 12' cord will charge well at 3.3kw, and will be a good unit for the next 3+ years? That may be what we need since we probably don't have the 8 guage wire or the space on the breaker box. We don't need more than 12' on the cord, and it's cheaper so may be the way to go.

Click to expand...

Yep The Bosch should be fine, mine has been in operation for 16 months with no problem, and that's with it connected to the Dryer connector at 30 amps.


Fred

Just found out from my electrician friend who was out at the house yesterday that we have room to do either a 20A or 40A, but that it will cost about $90 more to do the 40A. With comparing the two Bosch's on amazon, it is a cost difference of $132 just for the 40A vs the 20A, and then the $90 for electrical.. Is it worth an extra $220 or so odd dollars?

Also he just asked, so long as the charger doesn't require a neutral wire. They don't right? Just looks like it needs a ground.

hilarybrogers said:

I'm pretty sure we don't have a 200 amp main feed. So a the Bosch with 12' cord will charge well at 3.3kw, and will be a good unit for the next 3+ years? That may be what we need since we probably don't have the 8 guage wire or the space on the breaker box. We don't need more than 12' on the cord, and it's cheaper so may be the way to go.

Click to expand...

It depends on which model Bosch you are taking about.
The one you gave details on previously is a 30 amp unit and requires 40 amp circuit to meet code and be safe.
But they make other units that are lower amps and only require lower amp circuit.

As others have said, what is cost effective and smart for your situation depends on all the details of your current electrical installation.
Wait and see what the first electrician says.
But to be cost effective this is not something you should try to do all in one day with one elecrician.
Get several opinions and quotes.

Here's the other Bosch: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-EL-51245-Electric-Vehicle-Charging/dp/B00DMG104E/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t

I started out with a Leviton 16A unit. I now have a 32A unit and I charge my Leaf at 27.5A. I have 100A service and I have my EVSE connected through a 40A breaker. A user posted a link to a 30A unit from Home Depot on sale for $399.

The Bosch unit is a OEM from China but so far the service has been good.

The extra speed of going to a 30A unit is noticeable and for the slight extra cost of heavier wire I think it is worth it.

If you are into DIY you can make a basic JuiceBox or OpenEVSE for around $300 for 30A.

hilarybrogers said:

I'm pretty sure we don't have a 200 amp main feed. So a the Bosch with 12' cord will charge well at 3.3kw, and will be a good unit for the next 3+ years? That may be what we need since we probably don't have the 8 guage wire or the space on the breaker box. We don't need more than 12' on the cord, and it's cheaper so may be the way to go.

Click to expand...

Again, I'd encourage you to go over the load calcs with the electrician. The results of those calculations will tell you whether or not a new 40A circuit is appropriate. The size of your service feed is important, but can only be put in perspective by the load calculations.

The wire gauge depends on whether you install a 20A or 40A circuit; i.e. you don't have the wire yet. Don't worry about this.

Space in the electrical panel is a separate issue. You will need a breaker for this new circuit, regardless of whether it's 20A or 40A. If the panel is full, the electrician may be able to replace existing breakers with smaller ones to free up space.

But again it is all dependent on doing the load calculations to make sure you can safely add the new circuit (and what size), even if the space exists.

As for your last question, yes a 3.3kW unit will work fine into the foreseeable future. The J1772 standard ensures this. In fact, in my opinion 3.3kW is enough for at-home charging for a good majority of EV drivers, regardless of how big battery packs become. And in fact, one could argue that the larger the pack, the less important the home charging speed. Another benefit to a slower charge is you put less strain on the local infrastructure -- for example the transformer you may be sharing with several neighbors. I think this is one issue that is often forgotten when discussing "future proofing".

The problem is I want to have the unit in hand before they install so they can make sure they do what they need, so looking at prime shipping from amazon. We mostly won't be driving more than 30-40 miles a day, so I know a trickle charge could be sufficient, but again we can't even do that from our garage right now. So trying to figure out what will get us a quicker charge, for decently fair price, and won't overload our already not so great house electrical. It's a detached garage without a ground wire, that's currently wired through a 2 way light switch in the house, so it will all be new/redone anyway. I would prefer to not have to redo it all again in a few years if/when the systems change, but also don't want to spend $2000 to upgrade the house's entire breaker right now. I'm thinking it sounds like from all of this that the smaller Bosch (http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-EL-51245-Electric-Vehicle-Charging/dp/B00DMG104E/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t) should be a good upgrade (from nothing!) and probably not necessary to do the 40A breaker.

hilarybrogers said:

Just found out from my electrician friend who was out at the house yesterday that we have room to do either a 20A or 40A, but that it will cost about $90 more to do the 40A. With comparing the two Bosch's on amazon, it is a cost difference of $132 just for the 40A vs the 20A, and then the $90 for electrical.. Is it worth an extra $220 or so odd dollars?

Also he just asked, so long as the charger doesn't require a neutral wire. They don't right? Just looks like it needs a ground.

Click to expand...

It would be better practice for the electrician to determine what is required from review of the installation manual of what he will be installing.
The Bosch is a hard wired unit.
The manual
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=3T6HVPzCAcypNu7cgogC&url=http://www.pluginnow.com/sites/default/files/569217%2520REV%2520A.061713.pdf&ved=0CCcQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNF6HDtuX2Hje2muWhLUOqs1Ytbk0w&sig2=-pS8FoiGPXf9tmawMisbag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
does not indicate a need for a neutral.

Whether the faster charging is worth it is a personal choice. If it was me, I would want it.

There are other lower cost EVSE options. evseupgrade.com and OpenEVSE which GlennD has built for several people.

I personally think hardwiring and no neutral is not the better choice.
Current code requires a close proximity disconnect means.
An outlet provides that, otherwise a disconnect is required.
The current code receptacles require neutral.
Better to put it in with current code receptacle with cable to the panel board that includes neutral conductor.

But it is a personal choice.

hilarybrogers said:

The problem is I want to have the unit in hand before they install so they can make sure they do what they need...

Click to expand...

Honestly, that's backwards. You really need the electrician to help you determine what kind of unit is appropriate and/or reasonable for your situation. You can usually download specs and installation instructions for EVSE you are interested in. You can go over these with the electrician without having to commit to a purchase beforehand.

Well buying an electric car first and then figuring out if you can charge it in your house is backwards too, but here we are. I want to get set-up as quickly as possible, so looking at buying via amazon prime and hopefully getting installed by Friday/this weekend. Amazon is so easy to return to, I'll probably just commit to one (or heck even buy both), download the specs to review with the electrician, and then move forward from there. Thanks everyone for your help!