Is it safe to charge with an ungrounded GFCI outlet?

Hello,

I have two questions:

1. Is it safe to charge a Leaf with an ungrounded GFCI outlet? When I tested the outlet with a basic outlet tester with three lights, it says "open ground". The test button on the outlet works, though (I guess testing doesn't rely on the ground wire). The outlet is connected to a 20A circuit with a circuit breaker.

2. Which one would be safer for charging? A grounded non-GFCI outlet or an ungrounded GFCI outlet?

Thanks.

Definitely the grounded non-GCI outlet - that's what we mainly use for L-1. Just make sure it's empty or has no more than an amp or so of load, at most. It also has to be "tight" and in good shape, as does the wiring for it.

I would also say the grounded non gfci outlet. In fact, I don't think the car would even charge through an ungrounded outlet. Doesn't the EVSE do a ground check before charging initiates? I would think it wouldn't see a ground and go into fault and not charge.

Like they said above, i dont think the car will charge with the ground missing. By the way, the missing ground on a gfci outlet is safe and to code, but there should be a sticker on the outlet stating "no equipment ground". This type of outlet works by comparing the current in vs current out. If there is more than a 5ma difference it trips off immediately.

CRLeafSL said:

I would also say the grounded non gfci outlet. In fact, I don't think the car would even charge through an ungrounded outlet. Doesn't the EVSE do a ground check before charging initiates? I would think it wouldn't see a ground and go into fault and not charge.

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Several of us have charged off our portable generators (120v & 240v) using the portable Leaf EVSE. Portable generators - being on wheels typically, are not normally grounded. You can still safely charge using the portable EVSE - by using a couple resisters, properly placed & properly sized. The search tool can be your friend.

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2. A grounded GFCI outlet. If you have a properly "grounded non-GFCI outlet", how much trouble is there to change it?

hill said:

CRLeafSL said:

I would also say the grounded non gfci outlet. In fact, I don't think the car would even charge through an ungrounded outlet. Doesn't the EVSE do a ground check before charging initiates? I would think it wouldn't see a ground and go into fault and not charge.

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Several of us have charged off our portable generators (120v & 240v) using the portable Leaf EVSE. Portable generators - being on wheels typically, are not normally grounded. You can still safely charge using the portable EVSE - by using a couple resisters, properly placed & properly sized. The search tool can be your friend.

.

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Exactly my point. You can't charge off the generator out of the box without tricking the EVSE to believe there is a ground there. That just confirms that the EVSE does indeed need a ground to begin charge.

MikeD said:

2. A grounded GFCI outlet. If you have a properly "grounded non-GFCI outlet", how much trouble is there to change it?

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Unless the outlet will be used for other things, you don't need a GFCI outlet for an EVSE, unless it's one of the few kit-type units with no built-in GFCI circuit. It's more important that the outlet not be worn than it is it be a GFCI unit.

Thank you all.

The grounded non-GFCI outlet is in my garage and on a 20A circuit, but the problem is that a furnace and a refrigerator are also on the same circuit so it may not draw 12 amps constantly if the furnace is running.

The closest GFCI outlet that is on a different circuit is ungrounded as mentioned.

The closest grounded outlet outside the garage is in the kitchen (on a 15A circuit) and I'll need an extension cord to use that outlet. I just read that it is okay to use an extension, so that is probably my best option then.

CRLeafSL said:

Exactly my point. You can't charge off the generator out of the box without tricking the EVSE to believe there is a ground there. That just confirms that the EVSE does indeed need a ground to begin charge.

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No, this confirms that the ground and neutral need to be connected to begin charge.
Since the EVSE doesn't have its own ground, it would be a bit more difficult to determine if the ground lead really is connected to ground.

kpj said:

The closest grounded outlet outside the garage is in the kitchen (on a 15A circuit) and I'll need an extension cord to use that outlet. I just read that it is okay to use an extension, so that is probably my best option then.

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Using an extension cord bypasses the temperature sensor in the plug determining if your outlet and wiring next to it is overheating. As such, the extension cord could be a fire hazard.

If the cord is not too long (say not over 50 feet), built with #12 wire or heavier (lower number), and has good quality plug/socket on the ends, it is probably ok for emergency use. I would not recommend it for extended/regular use. A much-used cord may have weakened connections and more risk of heating.

I was fine with 120 volt charging until I discovered that the outlet/cord end were getting quite warm. I switched to 240 volt on a much more capable circuit. I then also replaced the outlets with heavy duty ones, and installed a properly grounded GFCI.

You could charge using the ungrounded 20A outlet, and use an extension cord or other means to get a ground to it. If that's the best outlet to use (being 20A and unloaded is much more important than being GFCI), then find a way to get it grounded. It couldn't be that hard.

fooljoe said:

You could charge using the ungrounded 20A outlet, and use an extension cord or other means to get a ground to it. If that's the best outlet to use (being 20A and unloaded is much more important than being GFCI), then find a way to get it grounded. It couldn't be that hard.

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I don't know if it's allowed under code, but a grounding stake can provide a ground, with no extension cord. If the whole garage is ungrounded, I suggest you remedy that, because many tools and other devices used in a garage have a ground prong, and using a grounding adapter is completely unsafe if there is no ground in the outlet box. If the boxes ARE grounded* you can just install new, heavy duty outlet.

* Use a test light or multimeter to check for current between the hot (small) slot and the outlet cover screw. If that is hot, the box is grounded, probably with BX (armored) cable. If you get no light, try the other (neutral) slot and the screw. If that lights, the outlet is mis-wired and has to be fixed. If still no light, try the hot slot and the box edge. No light there means no ground.

I don't think an ungrounded outlet will even work at all.

It is not hat to install a grounded outlet: the white wire is (typically) grounded, so buy a good quality grounded duplex and use a short ground wire to jumper from the white (neutral) to the ground, and the connect the white and the black normally. Check it with a plug tester (with the 3 LED lights) - they are about $8 at a good hardware store. You should see the correct connections.

Then the EVSE should work.

NeilBlanchard said:

I don't think an ungrounded outlet will even work at all.

It is not hat to install a grounded outlet: the white wire is (typically) grounded, so buy a good quality grounded duplex and use a short ground wire to jumper from the white (neutral) to the ground, and the connect the white and the black normally. Check it with a plug tester (with the 3 LED lights) - they are about $8 at a good hardware store. You should see the correct connections.

Then the EVSE should work.

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I hope you are wearing your asbestos underware. :lol:

NeilBlanchard said:

It is not hat to install a grounded outlet: the white wire is (typically) grounded, so buy a good quality grounded duplex and use a short ground wire to jumper from the white (neutral) to the ground, and the connect the white and the black normally. Check it with a plug tester (with the 3 LED lights) - they are about $8 at a good hardware store. You should see the correct connections.

Then the EVSE should work.

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***Please do not do that and do not recommend anyone else do that.*** This creates the potential for an equipment chassis to become energized which could lead to a shock and we all should know that at this voltage that can lead to death. The nuetral and grounds should ONLY be bonded together at the main service panel. Everywhere else they should be kept separate with the exception of old dryer circuits.

Lots of good advice spread across various posts.

If you did want to use a non-grounded GFCI you need to trick the EVSE into thinking there is a ground and the only safe way to do this is through EVSEs that this can be disabled on or by using the resistors that hill mentioned. These are described in detail in the how to charge on a generator thread.

As others have said a grounded non gfci receptacle is best but since you don't have a dedicated one that might be problematic. I would actually be a little bit surprised if the EV charging, the fridge, and the furnace blower were enough to get your 20 amp grounded circuit above 16 amps so it's very possible that this option would work but you'd really want to have an electrician check everything out.

It's a very good idea that any and all of your ungrounded receptacles be replaced with GFCI receptacles as this will do a good job negating the safety hazards of ungrounded receptacles.

LeftieBiker's idea of a grounding stake is probably of no help to you and would likely cause violations of NEC, though he's not clear on what exactly he is trying to solve with them and how he intended you to implement them but I would guess it would be easier to just run a new circuit than try to add a ground to the existing receptacle.

It would be a very good idea to find an electrician who can take a look at your current electrical system to see if there any easy improvements to help modernize things and also see about adding a dedicated circuit or two.

I don't know much about your situation there, but if it were my garage, I would skip all these half measures and simply have a properly grounded new circuit run from the box...or at least have an electrician add grounding to the ungrounded circuit. It's one thing to do the resister trick or use an extension cord for an occasional use that you can monitor, it's another to use it day after day.

Anyway, 120v charging is pretty marginal at best. You should consider just going ahead running the circuit for, and buying a proper 240v EVSE. To my thinking anything else is being penny wise and pound foolish. On 120v, you have to spend so much time charging that it will almost surely limit the usefulness of the car. As an example, a 12 hour overnight charge on 120v will put approx. 48 miles of range into the car, which you can use easily use up in under an hour of driving. On 240v you can charge the car from flat to full in 4-7 hrs (depending on charging rate). For the same 48 miles, we're talking 2-4 hrs. Many times I've run around all morning, charged for a few hours, and then did it again that evening.

Thank you for all the valuable input. This forum is great.

I charge my car at work and at least for now I only need to charge at home occasionally during weekend if I don't have enough juice for one-way 15 mile commute on Monday. So I was basically looking for the cheapest solution for occasional home charging.

I don't know how many amps my furnace blower uses when it is running. The fridge says 6A. So if I turn off the furnace during the charge, I assume it should be okay. The grounded non-GFCI outlet in my garage is actually pretty old, so based on what I read, I'll probably need to replace it with a GFCI outlet.

But I do agree 100% that a dedicated 240V circuit will be the best and make the car more usable. Not sure how expensive that will be (plus I'll need to buy a 240V EVSE) but I'll look into it as well.

Thanks again!

In the older standard of US wiring, the white neutral wire is also the ground. Look inside your breaker panel - all the white wires are grounded.

It tests correctly, and it works for an EVSE.

NeilBlanchard said:

In the older standard of US wiring, the white neutral wire is also the ground. Look inside your breaker panel - all the white wires are grounded.

It tests correctly, and it works for an EVSE.

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Just because it works does not make what you proposed safe. It actually would not pass my receptacle tester which actually tests for that specific condition.

Anyone doing that is increasing the risk that their electrical system will cause a shock which can and does kill people. I would highly recommend that if you have done this that you remove it and also that you don't recommend anyone else do this.

Just because all the white wires are bonded to ground at your panel does not mean that at a receptacle the ground and the neutral are the same. They serve two distinctly different purposes at the receptacle.

QueenBee said:

NeilBlanchard said:

In the older standard of US wiring, the white neutral wire is also the ground. Look inside your breaker panel - all the white wires are grounded.

It tests correctly, and it works for an EVSE.

Click to expand...

Just because it works does not make what you proposed safe. It actually would not pass my receptacle tester which actually tests for that specific condition.

Anyone doing that is increasing the risk that their electrical system will cause a shock which can and does kill people. I would highly recommend that if you have done this that you remove it and also that you don't recommend anyone else do this.

Just because all the white wires are bonded to ground at your panel does not mean that at a receptacle the ground and the neutral are the same. They serve two distinctly different purposes at the receptacle.

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How does that feature of your receptacle tester work? It can actually tell the difference between neutral and ground bonded together right at the receptacle, and 100 feet away at the service disconnect. That's pretty cool.