How to best leverage strange existing outlets

Hi guys,

Apologize for my naivete when it comes to electricity. I've lurked here for some time and have recently returned as the need for a new vehicle grows each month. I am going to go look at the new Leafs and the RAV4EV later this month and am trying to work out how to charge them.

My house had some additional wiring done by the original owner and my breaker panel is full. One of my garage walls is shared with the laundry room and its dryer plug. On that garage wall there is a ten foot run of horizontal conduit with the following plugs installed.

Nema 6-20
Nema 14-50
Nema 5-15 GFCI

I've never had any reason to use any of them other than the 5-15 and today I confirmed that it shares the Dryer's circuit breaker. I have a gas dryer so I'm trying to figure out what I have available.

I was considering a Jesla in the 14-50 to be a great choice for a RAV4EV but something nagged at me to check the breaker panel. What i found is that there are no 40 or 50 (or above) breakers in there other than the AC. Doesn't a 14-50 outlet require that? My assumption is that all three of the above outlets are wired into the same circuit as the dryer which uses a dual pole 30Amp breaker. Is that adequate or do I need to change out the outlet or ???

I am guessing that some EVSE equipment can be set at what rate to charge and others base their charge rates on the plug used, is that right?

I have no idea what those outlets may have been used for in the past and welcome speculation.

Thanks for sharing your experience-this is a great community!

Sounds like a mess. It doesn't seem right that a gas dryer would be on a double-breaker. Perhaps they used to have a electric dryer and then someone split the circuit to feed 120, and the other half to the 5-15. As far as the 240V receptacles go, they should not be on the same circuit. Afaik, the 14-50 should be on a dedicated 50A circuit and the 6-20 on a dedicated 20A circuit.

You definitely need to map out what breakers those outlets go to, and take it from there. If they are indeed on the same 30A double-breaker as the (120V?) gas dryer, I'd think about having an electrician come out. Who knows what other funky stuff was done to your system. And since your panel is full, load calculations would probably be a good idea.

There are L2 charging options that would work with a properly-wired 6-20.

edit: "perhaps they used to have an *electric* dryer....

Nubo said:

You definitely need to map out what breakers those outlets go to, and take it from there. If they are indeed on the same 30A double-breaker as the (120V?) gas dryer, I'd think about having an electrician come out. Who knows what other funky stuff was done to your system. And since your panel is full, load calculations would probably be a good idea.

Click to expand...

Almost all gas dryers run on 120V. Same as the washers. Mostly because it only needs a small ~100W motor to turn the drum and blow the fan. As such, wouldn't be surprised a 5-15 outlet is on the same circuit as the dryer. My garage is like that too. Of the 3 walls, the far side is on it's own (looks aftermarket, as it's the only breaker on CU wire) the other two are all on the same 20A fuse, even those the outlets are 5-15. I don't know about the gauge, as I don't have a caliper.

Most likely several code violations. If you are not certain how to sort it out best to get an electrician.

I'd disconnect the 14-50 outlet and live with the 6-20 as your plug for charging (assuming it is on a 20a breaker) or

bite the bullet and pay for a new subpanel with a 50a or higher capability (consider 100a for a HPWC down the road) and run new cable to the 14-50 to put it on it's own circuit. Keep in mind the Tesla HPWC plays nice with 50,60,70,80,90 amp breakers as well.

smkettner said:

Most likely several code violations. If you are not certain how to sort it out best to get an electrician.

Click to expand...

+1

I would not use any of them to charge (or anything else pulling strong current for hours on end) without knowing that they are wired safely. At a minimum you could end up tripping breakers, at worst a house fire. I've seen reports of folks (here and other places) who have had fires due to poor wiring with EVs. Simply not worth the risk IMHO.

+1 to above comments.

Anyone with a little experience with electrical could probably check the load on your main panel, but someone that is not sure what they are looking at could get into a LOT of trouble. In that case the "Cheapest" option is to hire an electrician to check it out. As stated above, paying a few dollars now is much cheaper than rebuilding after a fire, even a small fire.

From your description it sounds like a NON-Electrician split the circuit, and maybe even installed the 30a circuit.

It is the wire size that will determine the maximum amps that you can place on the 240v dryer circuit. An electrician will be able to tell you how many amps max you can use and install the proper breaker.

As to the outlets, plug something into each of them and then switch off the breaker at the panel. This will help you determine which outlets belong to which breaker. Better, if you have a tester you can make sure they have power, then switch off one breaker at a time and see which outlets lose power when each breaker is switched off. You should have this info anyway for all your home breakers. I learned this the hard way with my home not too long after I bought it. While doing laundry with the microwave operating I switched on the garbage disposal - POP, everything went dark, including the kitchen lights. Turns out that when my house was built the kitchen and garage were all placed on the same circuit breaker. It must not have been a code violation when the house was built.

Bottom line, call around the various local electricians and find one that is experience with EVSE's. JMHO

You should focus on getting your 14-50R on a dedicated (and properly size wiring) circuit. If it is in a favorable location already, that outlet will be the most advantageous for most of the your non-Tesla EV home charging requirements. Typically, a 240V, 40A power source will be adequate for a L2 EVSE for the cars you mentioned.

Btw, you are correct . . . it is not the rating of the wall outlet or circuit breaker in the panel that determines the maximum current an EV will draw. It is the onboard charger in the car itself in conjunction with the EVSE via the J1772 pilot signal that goes between them. Imho, it would be wise to "over specify" your EVSE requirements to "future-proof' what you may need several years from now. For now, I would shot for a 10kW capable EVSE (240V at 40A), which may be more costly than say, a 3.3kW EVSE even though both operate at 240Vac.

By any chance have you considered getting an Electric Motor Werks JuiceBox? They are very reasonably priced and have a home charging L1/L2 (combined) EVSE capable of charging an EV up to 15kW (250V at 60A)! It is capbable of being easily adjustable up to any charging power level you may need up to that limit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAZYIMz5iAw

http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store

dsinned said:

You should focus on getting your 14-50R on a dedicated (and properly size wiring) circuit. If it is in a favorable location already, that outlet will be the most advantageous for most of the your non-Tesla EV home charging requirements. Typically, a 240V, 40A power source will be adequate for a L2 EVSE for the cars you mentioned.

Btw, you are correct . . . it is not the rating of the wall outlet or it circuit breaker in the panel that determines the maximum current an EV will draw. It is the onboard charger in the car itself in conjunction with the EVSE via the J1772 pilot signal that goes between them. [snip]

Click to expand...

I tested the 6-20 with my multimeter and confirmed it is on the dryer breaker as well. So yes, I agree we are out of code here. But it seems like I have a 240V/30Amp circuit that is available (three outlets on it but none in use). Does removing the 6-20 and replacing the 14-50 with a 14-30 and plug the EVSE into that seem like a reasonable solution? That would be just one, properly sized outlet on the dedicated dryer wiring.

If we find that charge rate inadequate then get a sub-panel with a 14-50 on another wall installed by an electrician.

Edited to add the obvious question. If I move ahead with the above plan I would need an EVSE that works on both a 240/30amp (for today) or a 240/50amp(or greater)(for tomorrow) circuit. Are there strong competitors that support this other than the Jesla and JuiceBox solutions?

drivinginsocal said:

dsinned said:

You should focus on getting your 14-50R on a dedicated (and properly size wiring) circuit. If it is in a favorable location already, that outlet will be the most advantageous for most of the your non-Tesla EV home charging requirements. Typically, a 240V, 40A power source will be adequate for a L2 EVSE for the cars you mentioned.

Btw, you are correct . . . it is not the rating of the wall outlet or it circuit breaker in the panel that determines the maximum current an EV will draw. It is the onboard charger in the car itself in conjunction with the EVSE via the J1772 pilot signal that goes between them. [snip]

Click to expand...

I tested the 6-20 with my multimeter and confirmed it is on the dryer breaker as well. So yes, I agree we are out of code here. But it seems like I have a 240V/30Amp circuit that is available (three outlets on it but none in use). Does removing the 6-20 and replacing the 14-50 with a 14-30 and plug the EVSE into that seem like a reasonable solution? That would be just one, properly sized outlet on the dedicated dryer wiring.

If we find that charge rate inadequate then get a sub-panel with a 14-50 on another wall installed by an electrician.

Edited to add the obvious question. If I move ahead with the above plan I would need an EVSE that works on both a 240/30amp (for today) or a 240/50amp(or greater)(for tomorrow) circuit. Are there strong competitors that support this other than the Jesla and JuiceBox solutions?

Click to expand...

It's more involved than which plug was installed. Wire gauge & type, distance from the panel, outlet, and breaker needs to be compatible for the expected amperage draw. If not, you run the risk of melting the wiring and causing a fire.

If you have a "30 amp" circuit available such as dedicated clothes dryer service, then it's likely #10 wire that would be rated for 24 amps continuous load. If so, can only support an EVSE in the 20-24 amp range. More than likely local code will require min #8 wire for 30 amp continuous loads and min #6 wire for 40 amp continuous loads. It's unlikely #8 or #6 wiring is inside the walls of a residential home unless installed for a special purpose.

Are you sure that "14-50" isn't actually a 14-30? That would make more sense.