CHAdeMO-to-Tesla adapter?

If the Japanese Tesla market will be getting Tesla-to-CHAdeMO adapter (so that they can plug their Model S vehicles into the ubiquitous CHAdeMO stations in Japan), kinda makes you wonder whether a CHAdeMO-to-Telsa adapter might be possible for us in the US. Of course, I'm sure that Tesla Motors wouldn't be too happy about that development, but if they developed some means for us to pay for the electricity that we use at Tesla Superchargers, it would be a win-win...

ahagge said:

If the Japanese Tesla market will be getting Tesla-to-CHAdeMO adapter (so that they can plug their Model S vehicles into the ubiquitous CHAdeMO stations in Japan), kinda makes you wonder whether a CHAdeMO-to-Telsa adapter might be possible for us in the US. Of course, I'm sure that Tesla Motors wouldn't be too happy about that development, but if they developed some means for us to pay for the electricity that we use at Tesla Superchargers, it would be a win-win...

Click to expand...

I expect we probably will see the Tesla-to-CHAdeMO adapter in the US soon, and many LEAF drivers will have the experience of waiting hours (?) for 85 kWh S's to move on from the CHAdeMO chargers.

Tesla will probably never allow non-Tesla vehicles to charge at it's DC Chargers, But...

Tesla is (IMO) promoting "free" supercharging as an economically unsustainable marketing gimmick to sell their higher priced (DC capable) models. Once the superchargers fill up with S's sucking up the "free" kWh, the overflow will want to use the nearest CHAdeMO.

If such an adapter shows up in the states, you can bet it is going to be quite pricy.

Anything is possible, Now how much would you pay? =)

A Supercharger to CHAdeMO adapter is definitely possible, but is going to cost well over $1k to make just in materials, and there will be no guarantees that Tesla will not engage an electronic war in an attempt to defeat it if they want to.

Keep in mind if suddenly every CHAdeMO station is clogged with a Model S all the time, all the operators have to do is impose a time or kWh limit. Personally, I don't see this happening much if at all, as they will almost always have the range they need. Japan is another matter, as they have tons of CHAdeMO and no Superchargers (as yet).

I know I've already waited for many Leaf owners who insist on staying there for every last electron even when the charge rate has dropped to levels around L2. I call it rude!

I always depart the station when I've got enough juice to get where I'm going, and I'll stop the CHAdeMO and move to L2 as soon as the transfer drops below 8kW if there's someone waiting. This almost always limits me to 15 minutes. If I had my way, I'd limit all CHAdeMO sessions to 15 minutes. This would also be much better for the Leaf's battery, as the bulk of the heat occurs later in the charge.

-Phil

There are some who have speculated on the TMC forum, that many of the Chademo chargers will be getting the new SAE J-1772 DC Frankenplug added to them. If that becomes a reality, Tesla will just produce a J-1772 adapter with the Frankenplug, which is electrically compatible to the Tesla protocol/standard. Those adapters will be a lot less expensive, since they will just be physical connector adapters, and not likely to have much, if any electronics in them.

mitch672 said:

There are some who have se listed on the TMC forum, that many of te Chademo chargers will be getting the new SAE J-1772 DC Frankenplug added to them. If that becomes a reality, Tesla will just produce a J-1772 adapter with the Frankenplug, which is electrically compatible to the Tesla protocol/standard. Those adapters will be a lot less expensive, since the will just be physical connector adapters, and not likely to have much, if any electronics in them.

Click to expand...

This is not correct. The "Frankenplug" is not upward compatible with J1772, only backward compatible. This means that while the Tesla can accept standard L1/L2 J1772, it will not be able to use the Combo without adding a lot more stuff, including the power-line communications system used in the Combo system.

Actually, I posit that a CHAdeMO to supercharger adapter is easier and simpler than a SAE Combo to supercharger!

-Phil

Ingineer said:

mitch672 said:

There are some who have se listed on the TMC forum, that many of te Chademo chargers will be getting the new SAE J-1772 DC Frankenplug added to them. If that becomes a reality, Tesla will just produce a J-1772 adapter with the Frankenplug, which is electrically compatible to the Tesla protocol/standard. Those adapters will be a lot less expensive, since the will just be physical connector adapters, and not likely to have much, if any electronics in them.

Click to expand...

This is not correct. The "Frankenplug" is not upward compatible with J1772, only backward compatible. This means that while the Tesla can accept standard L1/L2 J1772, it will not be able to use the Combo without adding a lot more stuff, including the power-line communications system used in the Combo system.

Actually, I posit that a CHAdeMO to supercharger adapter is easier and simpler than a SAE Combo to supercharger!

-Phil

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure. Supposedly the Tesla engineers sat in on the development of the SAE DC standard. They did not like the time (it was taking to make decisions) nor the direction of the plug design, so they designed their own plug, but the protocols for supercharging are the same as SAE DC charging, so the adapter should be fairly simple for them as long as you have the supercharger hardware on board. This means only the 85kWh cars and the 60kWh cars that pay for the supercharger components. 40kWh cars are still out of luck on fast charging because they lack the communications card and the charger bypass relays.

Ingineer said:

mitch672 said:

There are some who have se listed on the TMC forum, that many of te Chademo chargers will be getting the new SAE J-1772 DC Frankenplug added to them. If that becomes a reality, Tesla will just produce a J-1772 adapter with the Frankenplug, which is electrically compatible to the Tesla protocol/standard. Those adapters will be a lot less expensive, since the will just be physical connector adapters, and not likely to have much, if any electronics in them.

Click to expand...

This is not correct. The "Frankenplug" is not upward compatible with J1772, only backward compatible. This means that while the Tesla can accept standard L1/L2 J1772, it will not be able to use the Combo without adding a lot more stuff, including the power-line communications system used in the Combo system.

Actually, I posit that a CHAdeMO to supercharger adapter is easier and simpler than a SAE Combo to supercharger!

-Phil

Click to expand...

Tesla is on the J-1772 committee, and had input to the new DC standard. Don't be surprised if it closely or exactly matches what they are doing with their protocol/SuperChargers. The tesla standard just has internal relays that switch the power connections from the internal chargers directly to the battery pack. It's really a question of protocol compatibility, time will tell.

ahagge said:

If the Japanese Tesla market will be getting Tesla-to-CHAdeMO adapter (so that they can plug their Model S vehicles into the ubiquitous CHAdeMO stations in Japan...

Click to expand...

Cool. Tesla to CHAdeMO is very welcome. That will increase the population of CHAdeMO users in the US - and hopefully that will promote CHAdeMO.

palmermd said:

I'm not so sure. Supposedly the Tesla engineers sat in on the development of the SAE DC standard. They did not like the time (it was taking to make decisions) nor the direction of the plug design, so they designed their own plug, but the protocols for supercharging are the same as SAE DC charging, so the adapter should be fairly simple for them as long as you have the supercharger hardware on board. This means only the 85kWh cars and the 60kWh cars that pay for the supercharger components. 40kWh cars are still out of luck on fast charging because they lack the communications card and the charger bypass relays.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but you are wrong. The SAE combo uses separate pins for AC and DC, Tesla does not, so this is vastly different already. Since the digital communications for the SAE combo use PLC (Power Line Communications) over the separate AC pair from J1772, this cannot work as the PLC will not work over DC. Tesla uses a 5 pin connector, the big 2 are the AC/DC input, there's a Ground, a Proximity, and the last one is a data line which is also backward compatible with SAE J1772, but not Combo.

-Phil

Phil,

Respectfully, we are talking about a high power relay here. If the 2 protocols are similar or the same, the DC pins on the SAE DC J-1772 connector can simply be switched to the inputs on the Model S. that's all Tesla is doing, is using relays to direct the power to either the onboard AC charger(s) or direct to the pack. The PLC communication compatibility is the key, if they are compatible, it won't take much to build an SAE J-1772DC charger to Tesla Model S adapter.

BTW, there is a provision in the existing J-1772 pilot protocol for "advanced digital" communication, they could certainly have a data link using that.
http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
%3-%7 "digital communications required"

Ingineer said:

palmermd said:

I'm not so sure. Supposedly the Tesla engineers sat in on the development of the SAE DC standard. They did not like the time (it was taking to make decisions) nor the direction of the plug design, so they designed their own plug, but the protocols for supercharging are the same as SAE DC charging, so the adapter should be fairly simple for them as long as you have the supercharger hardware on board. This means only the 85kWh cars and the 60kWh cars that pay for the supercharger components. 40kWh cars are still out of luck on fast charging because they lack the communications card and the charger bypass relays.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but you are wrong. The SAE combo uses separate pins for AC and DC, Tesla does not, so this is vastly different already. Since the digital communications for the SAE combo use PLC (Power Line Communications) over the separate AC pair from J1772, this cannot work as the PLC will not work over DC. Tesla uses a 5 pin connector, the big 2 are the AC/DC input, there's a Ground, a Proximity, and the last one is a data line which is also backward compatible with SAE J1772, but not Combo.

-Phil

Click to expand...

Here is the standard.

http://standards.sae.org/j1772_201210/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://standards.sae.org/j2931/1_201209/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://standards.sae.org/j2847/1_201105/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the latter two are only somewhat related to the new DC standard

When charging DC mode then pins 1 and 2 (which are for the AC power for Level 1 and 2 AC) are not even used. PLC signals are sent over the ground pin. This could be completely wrong and it could be correct that the PLC signals are sent over the pins 1 and 2, but everything I've seen to date says otherwise.

palmermd said:

When charging DC mode then pins 1 and 2 (which are for the AC power for Level 1 and 2 AC) are not even used. PLC signals are sent over the ground pin. This could be completely wrong and it could be correct that the PLC signals are sent over the pins 1 and 2, but everything I've seen to date says otherwise.

Click to expand...

Any signal must be referenced to something. If you use the ground line, then it would have to be an isolated ground, which is it clearly not. I think the diagram means the PLC signals are returned or referenced to ground, which is how it works on the normal PLC. If you were to use an isolated ground (isolated from the earth), the you could use the ground as a carrier.

I have not seen the full final standard myself, but all the prelims seemed to indicate it was carried over the power lines, which was the whole point of using PLC, this way the smart grid could enjoy bi-directional communications with the vehicle.

Yes, the data over the pilot line is not new, but this isn't used in the combo. The diagram seems to confirm this by showing the pilot can either be PWM or 12v, there is no third option.

-Phil

In any event, it's still possible to build a SAE combo to Tesla adapter, it's just not "simple". (Read: Costly)

Though if you can afford a 85kWh Model S, a $2k+ adapter is peanuts.

-Phil

mitch672 said:

There are some who have speculated on the TMC forum, that many of the Chademo chargers will be getting the new SAE J-1772 DC Frankenplug added to them. If that becomes a reality, Tesla will just produce a J-1772 adapter with the Frankenplug, which is electrically compatible to the Tesla protocol/standard. Those adapters will be a lot less expensive, since they will just be physical connector adapters, and not likely to have much, if any electronics in them.

Click to expand...

I think the SAE folks would prefer if we used the term "The Combo" instead of "Frankenplug"...

TEG said:

I think the SAE folks would prefer if we used the term "The Combo" instead of "Frankenplug"...

Click to expand...

They would also want us to call them the Masters of the Universe ;-)

Here is a post from the TMC forum, as was thought, Tesla confirms that SAE DC standard is compatable with their protocol, so an SAE DC to Tesla adapter will be trivial. The video has a lot of background noise, but he does state that "Tesla will be electrically compatible with SAE DC"

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7107-Likelihood-of-a-CHAdeMO-adapter-for-the-Model-S/page38?p=251137&viewfull=1#post251137" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote from RDoc

"This is it. The whole thing is very interesting (at least to me) but the CHAdeMO / SAE combo discussion starts around 3:20 or so and he does say that the SAE combo standard will be electrically compatible with the Tesla connector and CHAdeMO isn't. They didn't go with SAE combo even though they were heavily involved in the SAE discussions because SAE was just too slow to get the standard together. Tesla wanted to design and ship actual vehicles."

http://vimeo.com/36221090

Looking at the diagram, it appears they use a normally-closed contactor to connect the pack to the connector. Is this a mistake, or am I missing something?

I remember seeing the Vimeo video a year ago or so and then when the SAE DC standard was released and all the indications were that they are not using pins 1 and 2 in DC mode means that it should work with an adapter. This also means that the SAE and Supercharger standards, while not the same, do have similarities and could swing the fast charging momentum in their direction and away from Chademo.

tps said:

Looking at the diagram, it appears they use a normally-closed contactor to connect the pack to the connector. Is this a mistake, or am I missing something?

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the normally closed symbol on the diagram is on the Vehicle side...it could really be anything (NO or NC). I think you are reading too much into the diagram. Really, all they are indicating is that the car is going to have some way of potentially disconnecting the charge if it feels that the charger is not doing what it is supposed to do. Leaf has the same setup with ChaDeMo. If the car requests 20 amps and the ChaDeMo charger is sending 25 amps, the car will disconnect the circuit because the off-board charger was unresponsive to the charge request.