Is it safe to charge with an ungrounded GFCI outlet?

There are now supposed to be two paths to "earth" in a 120 volt circuit, one to complete the A/C circuit and one to provide some protection against shorts in the circuit. The fact that both of them use the grounding stake or clamp at the breaker panel doesn't mean that they are the same path, and interchangeable. The actual "ground" circuit is there to trip the breaker instantly if the circuit is shorted. If what neilblanchard wrote were true, there would be no need for a separate ground wire. There is definitely such a need.

Oh, and the National Electrical Code allows neutral and ground to be connected *only* in the main service panel. Not even at sub-panels, and certainly not in outlets.

They used to allow it on household ranges and dryers, but took it away a few years back. Thats when they started using the 14- pigtails instead of the 10- pigtails. I wonder how many dryers are installed across the nation with that jumper between neutral and ground still connected?

kpj said:

Thank you for all the valuable input. This forum is great.

I charge my car at work and at least for now I only need to charge at home occasionally during weekend if I don't have enough juice for one-way 15 mile commute on Monday. So I was basically looking for the cheapest solution for occasional home charging.
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You have received some horribly bad responses and some very good responses.

Keep in mind that if circuits in your garage do not have separate ground wire that the installation is very old.

I think the change in the code to separate ground wire was sometime in the 1950s or early 1960s.

I have experience with the early Romex manufactured in the 1940s and it is an absolute fire hazard disaster. If it is that old every last piece of it needs to be replaced.

If it is 1950s or early 1960s it might be OK, but keep in mind that all plastic materials eventually become brittle. It might still be tolerable, but at some point it will become unsafe and should be replaced.

It would be better, smarter, and safer to go ahead and put in proper new cables for power to your garage and not even consider using such old cables for 120V EVSE charging.

A repeat of my input from previous questions on 120 V EVSE use:
Note that Nissan recommends the 120V EVSE for limited emergency use only.
Some people have used it for a long time without problems yet, but in general that is a bad idea unless you have a newly properly installed dedicated circuit with high grade receptacle using properly tightened screw connections.

Previous info from another thread:

mikelb said:

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Trickle charging should be safe, though, right? I wouldn't necessarily need to have the circuit certified for it or anything, should I? If I were to go to a friend's house, would I be safe plugging into their outlet?

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How safe 120V charging is depends on how lucky you are.
Very few garages have the correct properly installed high quality single outlet supplied by a single breaker.
Code only allows using 80% of the circuit rating for a long term continuous load.
So on a 15 amp circuit nothing else should be on the same circuit while the car is charging.
And a lot of 120V gets put in poorly using push in connections.
One person had a bad fire most likely from staples that had damaged the cable in the wall.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=15784&hilit=+fire#p352567" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree pulling a 3-wire cable to the outlet is the best answer.

But, if you want to get an EVSE that requires a ground connection to work, what I wrote will do that. You should test it, of course.

johnrhansen said:

How does that feature of your receptacle tester work? It can actually tell the difference between neutral and ground bonded together right at the receptacle, and 100 feet away at the service disconnect. That's pretty cool.

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So based on the fact that it will give you false positives if you test a receptacle that is near the service panel I presume that it does this simply by always expecting a certain amount of resistance between ground and neutral. So say 20 feet of wire + connections generally equals x resistance. If the resistance is ever lower than x that means either you are really close to the service panel or you've bonded ground and neutral right at the receptacle.

If you are going to run a new dedicated circuit, you might as well go 240 and get the evse upgrade.

HERES WHAT WIKEPDIA SAYS ABOUT CONNECING THE GROUND AND NEUTRAL AT THE OUTLET:

In building wiring, a bootleg ground is an electrical ground that is wired from the neutral side of a receptacle or light fixture in an older 2-wire home. [1] This essentially connects the neutral side of the receptacle to the casing of an appliance or lamp. It can be a hazard because the neutral wire is a current-carrying conductor. In addition, a fault condition to a bootleg ground will not trip a GFCI breaker or a receptacle that is wired from the load side of a GFCI receptacle. Bootleg grounding is illegal and against code in many places. A safer and legal alternative to bootleg grounding (where a local electrical code allows it) is to install a GFCI and leave the ground screw unconnected, then place a label that says "No Equipment Ground" on the GFCI and all downstream receptacles.

240 volt circuits[edit]

Before 1996, in the United States it was common to ground 240 volt appliances (such as a clothes dryer or oven) to neutral. This has been prohibited in new installations since the 1996 National Electrical Code.

Bootleg grounding is illegal and against code in many places.

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Tye NEC makes it illegal everywhere in the USA.

Actually, the NEC has no teeth. It is a guide for the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction). It is the City, county, department of labor and industries, or whatever place you get your electrical permits from where you live. They can add or take away from it as they please. For instance, the NEC requires combination arc fault breakers practically everywhere inside a residential structure, but until very recently here in Seattle, you only needed to put them in bedroom circuits.

I didn't say the NEC has enforcement capabilities. It is a code meant to be a guideline for best practices, with the at least minimal "force" of law in places with no local codes. Neilblanchard seems determined to advise on the opposite of those...

johnrhansen said:

Actually, the NEC has no teeth. It is a guide for the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction). It is the City, county, department of labor and industries, or whatever place you get your electrical permits from where you live. They can add or take away from it as they please. For instance, the NEC requires combination arc fault breakers practically everywhere inside a residential structure, but until very recently here in Seattle, you only needed to put them in bedroom circuits.

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What's interesting is in Washington the AHJ can only make their requirements equal, better or greater than the state code. So for example the City of Bellevue did not adopt the amendment to the NEC that Washington state added which modified the AFCI requirements. NEC said back in 2008 that all general purpose circuits in a house need to be AFCI protected. Washington said it would be too expensive and thus limited this requirement to just circuits in bedrooms. So in the City of Bellevue new homes have required a large percent of breakers be AFCI since ~2009.

I went down to my sister's house last weekend and freaked out seeing space heaters being run through extension cords, run under carpets, etc.. It's a really good idea they require AFCIs everywhere now. But most new homes have so many receptacles, there is no need to run extension cords anymore.

I guess my sister figured out a way for me to rewire her house for free.... worry!

johnrhansen said:

I went down to my sister's house last weekend and freaked out seeing space heaters being run through extension cords, run under carpets, etc.. It's a really good idea they require AFCIs everywhere now. But most new homes have so many receptacles, there is no need to run extension cords anymore.

I guess my sister figured out a way for me to rewire her house for free.... worry!

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I think the standard cheap mass produced panels need to be larger to support this change. For example my 32 full size breakers or 40 with 1/2 width breakers GE panel is just barely big enough for all my circuits. I'd have to get really creative if I had to put in significantly more AFCI breakers in. 40 full size breakers on a small/medium house ought to be the minimum and any bigger house should probably have two panels.

When I put in my new service panel my electrician friend that was helping me thought I was silly for even putting any in since I was not required to. I figured the least I could do is put them on all the circuits anywhere near my bedrooms which ended up only being about half a dozen circuits. Though now 2014 NEC requires them in kitchens and laundry rooms too. Another thing that took effect this year is if you replace a receptacle which is in a AFCI required area you must add AFCI either at the panel or using the new AFCI receptacles.

I was really regretting it went the dang things would trip all the time. I really didn't want to give up and after so much trial and error I finally got a AFCI tester and started testing circuits one by one with everything else off. Doing this finally lead me to the problem. My Enphase microinverters use PLC to talk to each other. There is a communications box which stays on 24/7 trying to talk to them. This was installed right next to the panel. If I put it on a long extension cord the signal was attenuated enough that it would not impact the AFCI. I moved it to the solar PV panel and installed ferrite cores and the problem is completely gone. My garage light circuit did have some problems with tripping specifically just when turning on the lights. I suspect this is from having so many fluorescent lights and CFLs on the circuit so I removed that AFCI. Now the only trips I get are from sometimes turning on the vacuum if I plug it into an AFCI protected breaker

I also really like that Square D now has circuit breakers which can connect to a neutral rail so you don't need all those pig tails. Hopefully by the time I'm looking for a new panel they've become mass produced and cheap as that'll make for a much clear install, especially if you need a dozen+ AFCI breakers.

QueenBee: As you may know I have also noticed the new Square D "Plug-On Neutral" AFCI circuit breakers w/o the pigtails. Four years ago I upgraded my service to 200a and to a 200a 40/40 Square D QO panel just before I got my Leaf (as otherwise I could not have taken advantage of the free Blink EVSE). Unfortunately, that relatively new panel doesn't support the "Plug-On Neutral" breakers, which btw will also eventually include (if not already available) "Dual Function" AFCI/GFCI breakers. I'm hoping Square D will eventually sell a replacement 40/40 "Plug-On Neutral" replacement interior for my panel, but if not I've noticed Square D does sell a 200a 42/42 panel, but the metal cabinet is a few inches longer than mine. I very closely compared the interior of that one to mine and it looks like it will be feasible to swap out the interior bottom portion (and keep my neutral/ground terminals) with that of the 42/42 one without having the major hassle (and risk of wiring damage) of completely swapping the entire panel. I reason that since I won't be using the extra bottom row of the 42 breaker slots (which only take up about an inch of space that I am not needing anyway), the longer metal cabinet enclosure is not needed for reasons of safety.

Btw Square D currently makes two even larger 200a PON panels than the 42/42 one: a 54/54 and a 60/60 one, but I believe my 40/40 one should be sufficient for this house for the future. Even adding a couple more EVSEs should not be a problem, even more so since I see 20a 240v EVSEs should be adequate to charge even the newest Leafs overnight.

Make sure that you either disable or label that unusable bottom row on the new panel insert. You don't want a future owner trying to use it.

LeftieBiker: I agree with you, but also recognize that the front cover will cover up those bottom two slots.

I think electronics doesn't belong in a breaker panel. Ought to be just for 240 volt circuits and remote distribution panels throughout the house takes care of the 120 stuff. AFCI and GFCI can be handled within it. This way you don't even need light switches. Each light is turned on and off electronically inside that box. More individual circuits, less wire. Kind of the same principle the 787 uses for it's electrical distribution system.

johnrhansen said:

I think electronics doesn't belong in a breaker panel. Ought to be just for 240 volt circuits and remote distribution panels throughout the house takes care of the 120 stuff. AFCI and GFCI can be handled within it. This way you don't even need light switches. Each light is turned on and off electronically inside that box. More individual circuits, less wire. Kind of the same principle the 787 uses for it's electrical distribution system.

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I like the idea of more use of sub panels but am not seeing the problem with having electronics in a breaker panel? What is the difference between a "breaker panel" and a "remote distribution panel"? Don't see any reason why 120 volt and 240 volt circuits can't be together. I guess the problem with current breaker sizes is there likely isn't enough room for the AFCI, over current protection, and remote switching. Seems like in most cases for lighting you are still going to have a switch so I imagine replacing switches that provide more advanced interface to the lights in the room and elsewhere while also providing the relay for the lights in the room makes sense. Obviously some circuits like outside lighting may not need specific switches so for those you could have a panel that is just switching things like those.

The lighting at my works 20k sqft office space used to be controlled by individual relays that were all over in the ceiling. When we remodeled these were replaced by central relays. They produce quit the thud when they automatically power off.

QueenBee said:

johnrhansen said:

I think electronics doesn't belong in a breaker panel. Ought to be just for 240 volt circuits and remote distribution panels throughout the house takes care of the 120 stuff. AFCI and GFCI can be handled within it. This way you don't even need light switches. Each light is turned on and off electronically inside that box. More individual circuits, less wire. Kind of the same principle the 787 uses for it's electrical distribution system.

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I like the idea of more use of sub panels but am not seeing the problem with having electronics in a breaker panel? What is the difference between a "breaker panel" and a "remote distribution panel"? Don't see any reason why 120 volt and 240 volt circuits can't be together. I guess the problem with current breaker sizes is there likely isn't enough room for the AFCI, over current protection, and remote switching. Seems like in most cases for lighting you are still going to have a switch so I imagine replacing switches that provide more advanced interface to the lights in the room and elsewhere while also providing the relay for the lights in the room makes sense. Obviously some circuits like outside lighting may not need specific switches so for those you could have a panel that is just switching things like those.

The lighting at my works 20k sqft office space used to be controlled by individual relays that were all over in the ceiling. When we remodeled these were replaced by central relays. They produce quit the thud when they automatically power off.

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I have a TED (the energy detective) module and the 2 current coils in my panel. If you follow the install instructions it is very safe. Other than that it is just wires and breakers.