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 Post subject: On-board charger design
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:17 am 
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Does anyone think it desirable that the Leaf's on-board charger eventually be integrated with the Leaf's primary inverter, with the result of cutting costs and eliminating duplicate electrical components -- perhaps largely eliminating the current "my Leaf's on-board charger is only xx.x kW" complaint?

BTW does anyone know the efficiency (which relates to amount of cooling necessary among other things) of current EV chargers and EV inverters and what the theoretical maximum efficiency is thought to be?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:41 am 
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Probably best to let the Inverter do what it does best, drive the motor. The "Regen" requires a special all-voltage, all-frequency AC to DC conversion, and then does "charging". The on-board charger could share some components, but these are usually not expensive parts.

Cooling a 6.6 kW charger might be the issue, but probably "too much else to do", "not really necessary", and perhaps even "it is a nice step up for a later model" have driven the decision to just use the "world-wide" 3.3 kW charger design, at least for roll-out.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:21 am 
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What do you mean "eventually"? This can be both bad and good and auto makers will do anything to save a dime. The ACP drive used in tesla and Mini E uses the motor windings as part of the charger and the DC/DC in in the inverter (100A) which makes the entire package weigh about 160 lbs for inverter, DC/DC, motor and a 18KW charger, that I could live with not to mention 150 plus kw motor! I would bet the Leaf motor alone is close to that weight. Putting a sad 3.3 kw charger in the inverter is a cost measure and it just means a higher replacement cost and if one goes you may need to replace both as a unit. It is also easier because it is low power, don't expect a large charger to easily fit in an inverter case, not a traditional design at least. Like a DVD/TV combo. If the charger had some real power I would not take issue but this prevents or makes an upgrade very difficult. In addition, chargers tend to have issues MUCH more than inverters and are easier to repair. A separate charger is easy to swap usually but having them in one case reduces weight and has fewer cooling lines and less packaging.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:41 am 
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The inverter and motor are three phase power. You will not just backfeed it with household single phase power.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:37 am 
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many are not familiar with the "AC Propulsions T-Zero" technology, this integrates a 2-way charger (meaning it will not onlyh charge the battery pack, but it also does "V2G" (Vehicle to Grid)).

take a look at the link: http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-tzero.html
and http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-drivesystem.html

Reductive charger: http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-reductive.html

The only issue is, this powetrain currently costs $50K by itself, with no vehicle.
If the cost can be brought down, there is no better solution, it is "ideal"

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:58 pm 
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mitch672 wrote:
many are not familiar with the "AC Propulsions T-Zero" technology, this integrates a 2-way charger (meaning it will not onlyh charge the battery pack, but it also does "V2G" (Vehicle to Grid)).

take a look at the link: http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-tzero.html
and http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-drivesystem.html

Reductive charger: http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-reductive.html

The only issue is, this powetrain currently costs $50K by itself, with no vehicle.
If the cost can be brought down, there is no better solution, it is "ideal"



$50K ? I was last quoted $25K and if it were not made by hand they could do them for about $13k and in mass a fraction of that. Where did you get the $50K number?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:15 pm 
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$50K was the last # I've heard, if its $13-25K depending on how its mfr'd, I can't really see a reason that Nissan couldn't license it, and improve upon it...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:08 pm 
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mitch672 wrote:
$50K was the last # I've heard, if its $13-25K depending on how its mfr'd, I can't really see a reason that Nissan couldn't license it, and improve upon it...



Tesla has since day one. The only improvement is new packaging and I think they went liquid cooled. Just think, a 24kwh home back up system to boot and twice the power and fast charging. If it cost $100 more an auto maker will charge $600 more.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:38 pm 
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EVDRIVER wrote:
Tesla has since day one. The only improvement is new packaging and I think they went liquid cooled. Just think, a 24kwh home back up system to boot and twice the power and fast charging. If it cost $100 more an auto maker will charge $600 more.


According to wiki - Tesla no longer liceses from ACP. They have their own unique design now.

There was an article sometime back about all these parts/sub-assemblies people like ACP, Magna are designing and hoping to get bulk orders which are not materializing. No car manufacturer wants to outsource these basic things so early in the product maturity cycle.

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