Does reservation in non-rollout market mean anything?

I live in Colorado, have put $99 down to reserve a LEAF, and am quite confused about when we'll get our LEAF.

Brad Berman, over at PlugInCars.Com recently wrote a piece in which he claimed that only those in the 7 roll-out states will actually see their LEAF in 2011 -- http://www.plugincars.com/most-us-electric-cars-still-waiting-game-107016.html

Now, Nissan says it's going to take new reservations from those same 7 roll-out states starting May 1.

Is Brad right? Are those of us in the middle of the country who reserved a LEAF almost a year ago going to fall in line behind the newbies who come in from the 7 select states starting May 1?

I posted a comment in response to Brad's post, but he never responded with a clarification, which I found a bit odd, considering the fact that thousands of people in non-roll-out markets surely want a clear, unequivocal answer to the question of whether they're actually going to get a LEAF in 2011, and whether their reservation actually means anything.

This piece on Autoblogreen certainly doesn't do anything to make things clearer -- http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/20/nissan-to-accelerate-u-s-leaf-deliveries-reopen-reservations-m/

Nor does this piece from Reuters -- http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/20/idUS198880237120110420

However, this piece by Bloomberg News -- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-20/nissan-says-it-will-boost-u-s-deliveries-of-leaf-electric-cars-this-month.html -- quotes Carlos Tavares as saying the following: “Nissan Leaf deliveries are about to grow from the few hundreds to the many thousands. All current customer orders will be fulfilled by the end of this summer.”

I read this quote as meaning that I, a reservation holder in Colorado, will see my LEAF by the end of summer 2011, and before the newbies in the 7 roll-out states who sign up starting May 1 will. But maybe I am missing something between the lines here...

Does anyone have a definitive answer on the question of where those in non-rollout markets actually stand in the line to get a LEAF in 2011 and/or know of a current article/story online that clarifies this, once and for all?

You have a reservation, not an order. It says all 'orders' will be delivered by end of summer, not all reservations. Also, someone posted a transcript from cs about this, and they told them that starting May 1, the roll out states will be able to reserve and they will get their LEAFS ahead of the non-roll out states. Remember, in the colder states, drivers will need the 'winter package' which includes a battery warmer.

I'd be thinking "Made in Tennessee"

It's looking more and more to me like the plan is to build most of the cars in Tennessee. That plant is supposed to come online sometime in 2012 and have a pretty impressive capacity. The 50,000 units a year capability of Oppama clearly hasn't come close to being used. Nissan, before the earthquake, had claimed to be up to 1/2 of that and claimed that they were going to go to 4000 LEAFs a month - but clearly they never got there. Not sure now that they ever will. It will be interesting to see what they are able to ramp production up to, but based on the reports here of delivery dates - it seems to be at the high hundreds to low thousands per month for at least the next few months.

The Tennessee plant on the other hand is designed to produce 12,500 LEAFs a month so once it comes online one would hope to see more of a balance in the supply vs. the demand.

Thank you for your response.

What does "cs" stand for? Could you please point me to the transcript you're describing and/or the thread in which this issue of who's getting a LEAF first is ongoing?

On a slightly different note, it would appear that reservations for those in non-roll-out states are indeed essentially meaningless.

Why would Nissan bother to open reservations to those of us outside those 7 select markets almost a year ago if it planned, all along, to re-open reservations in the original 7 and have the new folks in those 7 states leapfrog in front of the rest of us?

It makes absolutely no sense -- other than as a marketing gimick to make it seem like LEAFs will be available nationwide in 2011.

Nissan should have been up front and told the rest of us: You can't get in line for a LEAF until later, until we've served the 7 original roll-out states.

Frankly, this whole approach angers me.

It's also worth pointing out that there are plenty of very cold places a LEAF could end up in California (Sierra Nevadas), Washington (Cascades), and even Arizona (Flagstaff, etc.).

LEAFfan said:

Remember, in the colder states, drivers will need the 'winter package' which includes a battery warmer.

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I think Nissan would be smart to also include an alcohol heater like Volvo is putting in their EV, to conserve range.

I think a 2010 reservation in a non-rollout state probably gets you a photo-op with your state's big newspaper taking delivery of the first 2013 model Tennessee built Leaf.

The Reservation gets you a place in A line to Order.

From early on, Nissan said Ordering priority would be by Area, then Reservation (in the area).

So, YES, your Reservation means something, but perhaps not what you wish it meant.

However, each area has its own line, and in many areas, the line is not yet moving.

Nissan will decide when to start processing the Reservation line for your area. Your area might even be combined with other areas before it "starts moving".

But, if you choose to stay in your line, at least you will be ahead of others in your area with later Reservations.

Nissan has a lot of work to do before THEY decide that an area is suitable to be "opened up" for orders. Dealers trained and with EVSEs installed, Roadside Service set up, suitable (favorable) PU and local permitting support, State Government & DMV support, etc.

In the mean time, you are "spending" about $1 per year to hold your place in a not-yet-moving line.

"CS" is often used as a short form for "Customer Service".

Order timing might well mean more to you than it has for us Sep/Oct orders :roll:

A follow-up question/observation:

I -- and other folks in non-rollout states -- really need to know from Nissan if we are not going to get a LEAF in 2011 for one very important reason: The Federal Tax Credit.

I have jacked up the allowances on my W-4 for this year in order to ensure that we get the full $7,500 credit. If we do not buy a LEAF in 2011 -- because we can't in Colorado, and we cannot take the credit, we will be liable for a substantial penalty for under-payment of Federal taxes because I jacked up those allowances thinking, falsely (?), that we'd be buying a LEAF in Colorado in 2011.

So, this isn't just about eagerness -- and frustration -- it's also about dollars and cents.

Here's my question to Nissan, one I plan on posing directly to them, and one that I -- and others -- really need a clear, unequivocal answer on as soon as possible:

• 
  Will I be able to buy a Nissan LEAF in Colorado (and other non roll-out states) in 2011, yes or no?

[Despite what a couple of folks have said above, Nissan has not been unequivocal or clear about the answer to this question, preferring, apparently, to play the "language" game of "orders" vs. "reservations" and allowing consumers to be confused by this.]

1. Changing your tax withholding or prepaying more or less Federal estimated taxes in NO WAY changes your tax liability, so it does NOT change how much of the $7500 tax credit you will get.

Selling stock for a GAIN, taking money out of most retirement plans, etc. tend to create MORE tax liability.

If your Fed Tax liability is $10,000 and you paid $11,000 in withholding, you would normally have a $1000 refund coming. With buying the LEAF, you would get a $8,500 refund.

2. Yes, it is quite likely that you COULD buy an orphan LEAF in 2011.

You MIGHT be able to get a Reservation in 2011 (get in line to Order later), but no "promise".

It is not impossible that you could actually Order in 2011, but I suspect quite unlikely - again no guarantee.

I THINK that it is VERY unlikely that you would take delivery in 2011 of your "Ordered" LEAF.

(Just my guesses, but it is VERY unlikely that you will get MORE DEFINITE answers elsewhere.)

solarchargeddriver said:

I have jacked up the allowances on my W-4 for this year in order to ensure that we get the full $7,500 credit. If we do not buy a LEAF in 2011 -- because we can't in Colorado, and we cannot take the credit, we will be liable for a substantial penalty for under-payment of Federal taxes because I jacked up those allowances thinking, falsely (?), that we'd be buying a LEAF in Colorado in 2011.

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I would suggest you put your W-4 back to normal. Until you have actually ordered the car and have your price confirmed I would not count on any time period of receiving the Leaf. This is not an issue of Nissan's concern. Worst case you get a refund in early 2012.

solarchargeddriver said:

Why would Nissan bother to open reservations to those of us outside those 7 select markets almost a year ago if it planned, all along, to re-open reservations in the original 7 and have the new folks in those 7 states leapfrog in front of the rest of us?

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What evidence do you have that "Nissan planned all along to re-open reservations in the original 7 states" and put those customers in front of the line? Don't you think that factors like the A/C restart inhibition problem (necessitating a service campaign) and the earthquake/Tsunami are likely to have changed their plans?

solarchargeddriver said:

I have jacked up the allowances on my W-4 for this year in order to ensure that we get the full $7,500 credit. If we do not buy a LEAF in 2011 -- because we can't in Colorado, and we cannot take the credit, we will be liable for a substantial penalty for under-payment of Federal taxes because I jacked up those allowances thinking, falsely (?), that we'd be buying a LEAF in Colorado in 2011.

So, this isn't just about eagerness -- and frustration -- it's also about dollars and cents.

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Sorry - this doesn't make any sense. Whether you qualify for the $7500 doesn't have anything to do with the timing of your tax payments.

I'd undo that change - Uncle Obama has already spent your money.

It was my (mis)understanding that you cannot receive any part of the $7,500 tax credit as a refund of any kind at all.

I thought you had to owe at least $7,500 at the end of the tax year in which you purchase an EV such as a LEAF in order to receive the full $7,500 tax credit.

I'm inclined to believe people here, who say it works otherwise.

However, does anyone know of an online source that I can go to officially confirm this?

And, while I'm asking, does anyone know of a source online that spells out, in clear, understandable English, exactly how the Colorado EV Tax Credit works? I've found a fair amount of information on it, but nothing that explains precisely, step-by-step, what one needs to do, what specific form must be filed, whether the Colo. credit can come in the form of a rebate (I believe it can), etc.

Thank you all for your feedback and help.

solarchargeddriver said:

It was my (mis)understanding that you cannot receive any part of the $7,500 tax credit as a refund of any kind at all.

I thought you had to owe at least $7,500 at the end of the tax year in which you purchase an EV such as a LEAF in order to receive the full $7,500 tax credit.

I'm inclined to believe people here, who say it works otherwise.

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The only issue is that you must pay in $7500 to get $7500 refunded.
If you pay in 7000 and owe 8000 then you would normally pay 1000. With Leaf credit you would only owe 500 and recieve 6500 refund.
If you pay in 5000 and you owe 4500 you would normally get a 500 refund. With Leaf you would get the full 5000 refunded.
One shot deal with no carry forward for the unused portion.
Other tax credits may not help you if you are getting the max back already.
What is withheld from your check does not effect the final tax amount due. It only will affect the deposit toward your final settlement.

Look at your 2010 return. If the tax you owe (before withholdings) is above 7500 you should be able to use the full credit assuming your situation is similar in the year you get the car.

There are several threads on this form that discuss and explain the Federal tax credit in excruciating detail. The thread entitled "How Exactly Will The Tax Credit Work" is a good one.
But as the previous poster noted, your qualification for the federal tax credit is based on the total taxes due for the year, not the balance due when you file your 1040.

Tax thread

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=283

solarchargeddriver said:

I have jacked up the allowances on my W-4 for this year in order to ensure that we get the full $7,500 credit.

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Pointed out in the post below yours, and followed up by links to other threads, but apparently it still bears repeating....your allowances/withholdings have NOTHING to do with the EV tax credit. The credit is against however much tax you actually owe. Whether you withheld too much, exactly the right amount, or not enough has no bearing on it. Whether you get a refund or write a check on April 15th has no bearing. The credit reduces the calculated amount of tax you owe - your actual taxes. If you earn $X in income on which you ultimately owe $Y in taxes, regardless of when you paid it, then you can reduce $Y by up to $7500 in the year you buy the car. But if Y is less than $7500 to start with, then you can only reduce it (your tax liability) down to zero.

Allowances on your W4 change the amount of money you hand over to the IRS out of any given paycheck. They do not change your tax rate, the calculation of your tax liability, your deductions, your income, or anything that relates to your tax burden. They are simply a way of trying to match what your tax burden will be to how much you've pre-paid, to avoid a big swing either way when you file. If you underwithhold, they don't like it (and if you underwithhold by too much, you can be penalized, or be forced to make estimated quarterly payments in addition to your paycheck withholdings). If you overwithhold, they don't care, but you should, because that means they are holding onto your money for no reason. Getting a huge refund is not a magically good thing, it simply means you had too much withheld and they got to play with it (invest it) instead of you.

The electric vehicle credit reduces your tax burden....IF you have one.

Look on your tax return for the TAX....not the taxes paid already, not your calculated refund. If your income and deductions are going to be similar in 2011, your tax should be at least somewhat similar. Is that number more than $7500? If so, you're looking good. You can get some money back for 2011. A credit on your tax burden. Your refund might go up, or the check you would have had to write may go down, or it might balance out. Again, it is not related to how much was withheld (or not) from your paychecks.

In fact - for most people who do owe enough total tax to make use of the credit, the strategy would be to REDUCE their allowances, resulting in LESS withholding, keeping the money in their bank account instead of the IRS's, because on tax day, you're going to owe less in tax. If interest rates were not so low, that could put significant money in your pocket.

Hope this makes sense - as noted we've been over it ad nauseam in other threads, but it still seems many people aren't understanding it.

Thank you for the very detailed and helpful replies on taxes. I apologize for getting into tax questions in this thread. But my misunderstanding of the tax credit was a big reason that I was miffed about the reservations/order/state location issue I raised at the beginning.

I mistakenly thought I needed to know if I was going to get a LEAF in Colorado in 2011 in order for my tax credit/allowance equation to work [I understand now that my allowances don't matter in this equation: Thank you].

Actually, though, I'm still miffed at what it looks like is the strong possibility that folks who reserve a LEAF more than a year after I did will likely see their LEAF long before I do.

I still don't get why Nissan would bring in folks outside of what I'll call the Exclusive 7 states at this point into the reservations process in the spring of 2010 if those folks were going to fall behind new folks reserving LEAFs starting in May 2011 in the Exclusive 7 in the actual delivery/purchase of a LEAF process.

To me, the whole thing smacks of a PR stunt on Nissan's part to pad the number of people reserving in spring 2010 and to make the whole thing feel like a national process, when, in reality, it was a state-by-state process all along.

If that is the way it was/is going to be, then tell us from the start: You are No. 100 in Colorado (Ok, maybe there are 500 reservations in Colorado, I don't know), but Colorado won't see any LEAFs until 2012, etc. Also, you're actually at 11,100 on the "real" list, with those in the Exclusive 7, weighted ahead of you.

Frankly, if I'd known this is the way it was going to be done, I wouldn't have seen any reason to reserve in April 2010, and, of course -- and this what Nissan counted on -- I wouldn't have been so excited in April 2010 when I reserved my LEAF.

I've also lost a lot of my enthusiasm for 2011 as well -- and I'm definitely going to be calling Ford to talk about when the Focus Electric will be in Colorado (although, again, Colorado's not a rollout market for the Focus Electric either :-(

Back OT and in answer to this threads title, an early Reservation means everything when it comes time to order in your state. Having a very early reservation time means Nissan will send you the "Its Time To Order" email first! On the day that orders open in your state, people with early reservations will be overjoyed... those without, not so much.