Buying used Leaf in AZ for 62 mile commute?

Hi all,

The title says it all, I've been toying around with the idea of finding a used Leaf as they seem super cheap. I have read quite a bit of information on this site but i have some specific questions that I was hoping to receive some opinions:

I went to a Nissan dealer and boy do they know squat about this car...


1. Why would anyone buy a "charging station" vs the "EVSEUpgrade" and have my electrician run a plug in garage(service panel on outside of garage, home built in 2012 w solar panels)
2. Does CPO help any?
3. I want the cloud for HOV lane access as I have a 62 mile round trip commute, 50 miles would be highway both ways during rush hour. I have a Tacoma as well and would plan to keep it for longer distances
4. I have my eye on a 2013 S for $11k OTD(dealer CPO, 6.6 charger), build date of 12/13, sold in AZ 1/14 as a lease w 28k miles currently: in AZ climate with my usage how long should the battery last? How long should I be able to do my commute on a single nightly charge with "EVSEUpgrade" charging at least five nights a week. I would expect 15-20k miles per year. I don't know the current amount of bars on the battery.
5. I understand that the battery has warranty for 5 years or 60k miles from in service if it falls to 8 bars, but is there ever a point within the 100k mile warranty that it can be replaced for free by Nissan; say it gets to 6 bars or something crazy like that.

Is anyone on this board local to the Phoenix area that I might be able to speak with?

Thank you,

Sean

Very, very bad idea. Do not do this for a 62 mile commute, unless you have absolutely reliable level 2 charging at your work place.

crazyczech584 said:

but is there ever a point within the 100k mile warranty that it can be replaced for free by Nissan; say it gets to 6 bars or something crazy like that.

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Not for falling to 6 bars. There'd need to be a major pack failure which causes the car to be not drivable. You can download the warranty booklet yourself via https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/navigation/manualsGuide. From the '13 warranty booklet:
"LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE
The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or
100,000 miles, whichever comes first. This warranty
covers any repairs needed to correct defects
in materials or workmanship subject to the exclusions
listed under the heading WHAT IS NOT
COVERED. This warranty period is 96 months or
100,000 miles, whichever comes first."

Firetruck41 said:

Very, very bad idea. Do not do this for a 62 mile commute, unless you have absolutely reliable level 2 charging at your work place.

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I agree.

The only way that commute would be doable after a year would be at 40-45MPH. You want a Volt or a Prius (Prius PHEV if that gets you HOV lane access).

Hi i drive regularly to the PHX airport and back home (62 mile round trip) and i never had range issues , I usually drive under the speed limit on freeways and i try to take surface streets when i get closer to my home . The sooner your realize you are driving a Leaf and not a Tesla you will get better avg miles per kWh.
I'm planning to upgrade to 2016 Leaf SV for 30KWH battery .

azguy said:

Hi i drive regularly to the PHX airport and back home (62 mile round trip) and i never had range issues , I usually drive under the speed limit on freeways and i try to take surface streets when i get closer to my home . The sooner your realize you are driving a Leaf and not a Tesla you will get better avg miles per kWh.

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Well, yeah, because you're driving slow and because you've got a more heat resistant "lizard" battery. The '13 doesn't have it along with being older and having more miles.

Eventually, even for you (if you still have the car), it will be harder and harder to make that trip w/o charging along the way or at the destination.

The OP might win the "battery lottery" and be down to 8 bars within the 5 year/60K capacity warranty, but he'll have to tough out having a 10 and 9 bar car for awhile, and possibly 8 until the battery comes. It is not totally clear how much better the "lizard" battery is in terms of heat tolerance over many years. It might just be enough to have fewer folks need replacement by the 5 year/60K mark.

azguy said:

I'm planning to upgrade to 2016 Leaf SV for 30KW battery

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It's kWh, not KW.

Thanks for the quick replies, my ace in the hole was there is a charge station near my work, but I don't know the details. So, the general idea is that in less than a year I will need to charge at work and will have a limited range. Assuming this, how long until I can't even make it one way on a single charge?

As for the HOV plate w plug ins, you must first have the hybrid plate on a car which they stopped offering, only way is alt fuel vehicle at this point.

Thanks again, Sean

Yes i still have my 2015 S and i average between 4.2 miles per kwh (AZ summer) and 5.2 miles per kwh in winter , even with low gas prices Leaf is a good car for phoenix , HOV + vehicle license tax + APS give you electric car plan $0.04 per kWh off peak .
I hope i can good deal on 2016 SV because of expected 2017 Leaf (40 kwh ?) ,Bolt and Tesla news .

crazyczech584 said:

Thanks for the quick replies, my ace in the hole was there is a charge station near my work, but I don't know the details.

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Look it up on Plugshare.

crazyczech584 said:

So, the general idea is that in less than a year I will need to charge at work and will have a limited range.

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Depending on the condition of the battery and how fast you drive, it might even be semi-tough now. If you drive fast, you'll need to slow down.

Given level ground, no HVAC usage (you'd obviously need to use the AC now) and no winds, power consumption for various speeds is at the top of http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4295. If you go 60 mph. you should average 3.9 miles/kWh. '11 to '15 Leaf on a new battery has about 21 to 22 kWh usable. There are charts further down that page for cars missing capacity bars.

Nissan has AFAIK never publicly released any battery degradation data (esp. taking into account time and temperature) for any of the batteries in the Leaf. They've released statements like http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=17168 or others on video. They'd also referred to a "hot battery" that was still in testing back then, which is the "lizard battery". We've never publicly seen any sort of curve, tool or model from them.

Prior to that, they've made claims like http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=469608#p469608.

crazyczech584 said:

.... I have my eye on a 2013 S for $11k OTD(dealer CPO, 6.6 charger), build date of 12/13, sold in AZ 1/14 as a lease w 28k miles currently: in AZ climate with my usage how long should the battery last? How long should I be able to do my commute on a single nightly charge with "EVSEUpgrade" charging at least five nights a week. I would expect 15-20k miles per year. I don't know the current amount of bars on the battery.....

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Sure, go ahead and get it (/sarcasm), then find out after next summer that the battery has degraded 30% due to your 110-115 F temps. Then complain about the lack of range, and sell it to me for $5000.

Nope, sorry, you need to lease or go with a battery that has temperature control (Volt, Tesla, etc.). Spend some time reading multiple threads here on MNL and you will see that even the 2013+ Leaf batteries are showing measurable temperature-induced degradation in AZ. If you can guarantee that you will get a new battery under warranty, can live with the expected degradation, and/or you have mid-commute or at-work charging options then, perhaps it will work. However, be careful with used Leafs from AZ since they "may" already have had the battery replaced (only one warranty replacement is allowed), or been "reset" to 12 bars. Get the VIN and call 1-800-NOGASEV to check.

Thanks again all, I guess I am still surprised that after 30k miles everyone's guess is that the car won't do 75% of the expected miles. If I had a a full 2 years and 30k miles with most likely 2 AZ summers...how would the battery possible make it w 9 bars! The car has already been through 2 AZ summers.

The gist of what I'm hearing, only buy if I am OK with charging at work which a station is walking distance and then hope I hit 8 bars prior to 60k miles which I would hit prior to 5 years.

I guess that leads to the next question, it seems I can do the 62miles now, at what point does everyone feel I can do the 31 miles each way which a charge in between w AC cranking in the summer?

Sean

On used LEAFs, remember that the top-most capacity bar represents about 15% of the available capacity. IOW, a 12-bar car can actually be sitting at 86% actual capacity, but you'd never know unless you did a range-test or check with something like LeafSpy.... let-alone the unlikely possibility of unscrupulous dealers resetting the battery computer so it temporarily shows 12 capacity bars.

Have you considered leasing a 2016? The incentives are pretty good, and the total-out-of-pocket might be a wash with buying used and selling in a few years. Hard to say what the market will do with 60-100 mile EVs by then.

crazyczech584 said:

Thanks again all, I guess I am still surprised that after 30k miles everyone's guess is that the car won't do 75% of the expected miles. If I had a a full 2 years and 30k miles with most likely 2 AZ summers...how would the battery possible make it w 9 bars! The car has already been through 2 AZ summers.

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On the crappy '11 Leaf batteries ('12 seemed no better), there was http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694 and the range tests at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326. The Leaf had only been out ~21 months and 1 car had lost 4 capacity bars under 29K miles and achieved a 59.3 mile result on Tony's 100 km/h (~62 mph) range test until dead. Do you plan to always drive your car until dead?

The warnings are LBW, VLBW then turtle before cutoff (contactor opening, I believe). If you arrived home after VLBW every day, would that make you very comfortable, even w/Leaf Spy? What if there's a detour or you take some wrong turns or miss an exit?

Yes, the 4/2013 and after Leaf batteries seem to be better, but so far, you've given us nothing to go on re: the condition of the car in question. The biggest contributors seem to degradation seem to be temperature and age. Mileage is a part of it too.

Some folks put together a battery degradation model (http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model) but this was no thanks to any real data from Nissan (other than one person's meeting w/Nissan where he wasn't allowed to copy or take pics of any graphs/data) and I doubt it's at all accurate for what seem like better batteries on '13+ Leafs built 4/2013 and later and the later "lizard" batteries.

Have you looked at the 9 CB and 8 CB range charts at the below?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y7hfg9ne3ojg9wa/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G69.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/epy3s5bmcbu3gpk/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G63.pdf?dl=0

You will clearly need to run AC. And, again, we don't know how fast you plan to drive. If you drive fast and blast the AC, you will not get very good range.

I don't know what you mean by " 75% of the expected miles". What's "expected"? For me, expected depends purely on energy consumption in miles/kWh. One can map speeds on level ground to energy consumption (mph vs mpg) but you need to also account for things like AC usage.

crazyczech584 said:

The gist of what I'm hearing, only buy if I am OK with charging at work which a station is walking distance and then hope I hit 8 bars prior to 60k miles which I would hit prior to 5 years.

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Yes, basically.

Thanks cwerdna for those links and especially the charts with 9 bar and 8 bar distances. Sounds like I need to get leafspy and get more info on the actual car.

^^^
No prob.

Reddy said:

However, be careful with used Leafs from AZ since they "may" already have had the battery replaced (only one warranty replacement is allowed), or been "reset" to 12 bars. Get the VIN and call 1-800-NOGASEV to check

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I'm not so sure that only one warranty replacement is allowed, but the replacement doesn't reset the 5 year/60K mile capacity warranty clock. Don't take this as gospel, but I'd expect a replacement to extend the original 5 year/60K capacity warranty somewhere between 0 and 1 year/12K miles, tops. (I believe anything from the "parts counter" only has a 1 year/12K mile warranty, and http://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/service/nissan-parts-warranty.html supports that.)

But yes, the resetting of the BMS has definitely happened more than once to folks.

Actually, thinking back to the OP, he did say "50 miles would be highway both ways during rush hour". If that means that most of it would be at low speed (say 35 mph or less) w/lots of stop and go, at least the OP wouldn't be cutting it as close vs. say 65+ mph most of the way, if he were to regularly do 62 mile roundtrips on a single charge.