Considering Buying Another EV

I am considering buying another EV; I currently have a 2011 Leaf, do not remember the specific model and was wondering how the current Leaf models fair up against the E-Golf and E-Soul. Any opinons?

D3Leaf said:

I am considering buying another EV; I currently have a 2011 Leaf, do not remember the specific model and was wondering how the current Leaf models fair up against the E-Golf and E-Soul. Any opinons?

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well normally I would say you need to post your location for us to give you an informed answer but if you have these options available...

Have to go with tried and true at least until either you mentioned moves beyond the compliance stage

Most people consider the Soul a better electric car, higher quality and 10 mile longer range. Smaller in the trunk though. I'm not sure it is a compliance car, perhaps just one that is conservatively being rolled out.

DanCar said:

Most people consider the Soul a better electric car, higher quality and 10 mile longer range. Smaller in the trunk though. I'm not sure it is a compliance car, perhaps just one that is conservatively being rolled out.

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would not expect anything else from someone living in a compliance state

I have a few comparisons listed at http://blog.deckerego.net/2014/11/are-electric-vehicles-really-better.html comparing the Focus Electric, Leaf, Tesla Model S, Spark, i-MiEV and Soul. Source spreadsheet is listed at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YX52JjZLCmRfThk52dOF8SIe58RnoJVQz2W-tSt8c8I. Both the Soul and the Focus seemed to be the top of the pack, but had very limited availability. The Leaf was the only one that had widespread dealership support, a price I could afford and acceptable performance.

My bad on the missing location; updated the profile. I live in a rural county, 30 miles northwest of Nashville.

Thanks for the replies and nice spreadsheet DeckerEgo and there are a lot of variables for determining anyone's CF; which is a discussion for another time.

First let me say that if I could afford a Tesla, that is what we would have, hands down. I am buying and not leasing, so I anticipate the average sale price to be 35K +/- 3K and we keep the Federal/State EV Incentives.

Anyway, we (the family) like VW's as our other four cars are all VW Beetles, so I am leaning toward the E-Golf.

And what does the phrase "Compliance Car" actually mean?

D3Leaf said:

My bad on the missing location; updated the profile. I live in a rural county, 30 miles northwest of Nashville.

Thanks for the replies and nice spreadsheet DeckerEgo and there are a lot of variables for determining anyone's CF; which is a discussion for another time.

First let me say that if I could afford a Tesla, that is what we would have, hands down. I am buying and not leasing, so I anticipate the average sale price to be 35K +/- 3K and we keep the Federal/State EV Incentives.

Anyway, we (the family) like VW's as our other four cars are all VW Beetles, so I am leaning toward the E-Golf.

And what does the phrase "Compliance Car" actually mean?

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Well if you like VW's and the maintenance that go with them, then why not continue the trend with the e-golf?

"Compliance Car" means a car manufactured only for the auto manufacturer to be compliant in California so they can sell all their cars and get credits. For example, the Toyota Rav4EV.

Is the Kia or VW even sold in TN? I thought the Kia was pretty much limited to California and perhaps some other CARB states. Haven't really noticed any rollout information on the VW eGolf.

If the cars aren't sold and serviced by dealers near where you live then getting service could be a major hassle. You can't expect just any Kia or VW dealer to be able to service them.

dgpcolorado said:

Is the Kia or VW even sold in TN? I thought the Kia was pretty much limited to California and perhaps some other CARB states. Haven't really noticed any rollout information on the VW eGolf.

If the cars aren't sold and serviced by dealers near where you live then getting service could be a major hassle. You can't expect just any Kia or VW dealer to be able to service them.

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Per VW's site, the eGolf is only available in CA, CT, ME, MD, MA, NJ, NY, OR, RI, VT, DC

DanCar said:

Most people consider the Soul a better electric car, higher quality and 10 mile longer range. Smaller in the trunk though. I'm not sure it is a compliance car, perhaps just one that is conservatively being rolled out.

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I have no idea how you could come to this conclusion, since the Soul has only recently come out. We won't know about the quality for several years.

D3Leaf said:

My bad on the missing location; updated the profile. I live in a rural county, 30 miles northwest of Nashville.

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if you are planning on commuting those 30 miles, I'd be wary of depending on the current crop of limited range EVs. for example in a LEAF you'd be pushing the limits of it's range without the ability to recharge in Nashville. YMMV

Stoaty said:

I have no idea how you could come to this conclusion, since the Soul has only recently come out. We won't know about the quality for several years.

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These are comments made by the many reviewers. More info here: https://plus.google.com/communities/113783233242372360509" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

D3Leaf said:

And what does the phrase "Compliance Car" actually mean?

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California Air Resources Board (CARB) - Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) "Compliance" Rules:

1) Compliance-only - These cars are sold only in ***CARB-ZEV states.

cars like Toyota Rav4 EV, Honda Fit EV, GM Spark EV, Ford Focus EV, Fiat/Chrysler 500e; built because the manufacturer is required to build EV's, and in pure compliance with the rules, the manufacturer makes just the minimum so that they can continue to sell high profit margin oil cars. Anything beyond that is generally in the form of press releases and not cars.

These cars are typically sold at a significant loss to their respective manufacturer. Typically optimized for "100 miles", but practically have closer to 70-80 miles, and can be 40-50 miles with cold weather. Making the car go double the 100 mile range only produces 25% more credit hence no compliance-only cars are 200 mile range. They typically don't have a quick charge option, although some do.

2) Compliance "Plus" - cars like Nissan LEAF, and BMW.i3. These are cars that must be built because CARB requires it, however they are typically sold anywhere buyers can be found, generally with a profit motive. They are generally built on a dedicated (and expensive) chassis. Because they really want to sell these, all offer some sort of quick charge, too. They advertise the cars.

The bottom line is that even though these are for-profit cars, sold outside of CARB-ZEV states, these manufacturers can't chose not to make any ZEV's, unlike the third group that follows:

3) Non-Compliance - cars like Tesla Model S and Mitsubishi iMiev. While neither of those two companies are required to comply, they both make 100% ZEV's. Definitely, profit motive cars. They are generally built on a dedicated (and expensive) chassis. Because they really want to sell these, all offer some sort of quick charge.


*******

Starting in 2012, the six "Large Vehicle Manufacturers" (LVM) were required to sell a minimum number of California Air Resources Board - Zero Emission Vehicle (CARB-ZEV) qualifying vehicles for compliance in California:


Manufacturer - ZEV used for CARB compliance:

Ford - Focus EV
Honda - Fit EV
Chrysler/Fiat - 500e
Toyota - Rav4 EV, iQ EV
GM Chevrolet - Spark EV
Nissan - LEAF


For model years 2015 and beyond, both LVM and Intermediate Vehicle Manufacturers (IVM) must comply with CARB-ZEV:


BMW - i3
Fiat/Chrysler - 500e
Ford - Focus EV, hydrogen by 2018?
General Motors - Spark EV, future Sonic EV, hydrogen by 2018?
Honda - absolutley hydrogen
Hyundai - absolutley hydrogen
Kia - Soul EV
Mazda - Demio EV
Daimler/Mercedes - B-Class ED, Smart ED, hydrogen by 2018?, Tesla Model S like car by 2020
Nissan - LEAF, eNV-2000
Toyota - absolutley hydrogen
Volkswagen - eGolf, hydrogen by 2018?


Auto manufacturers that are NOT subject to CARB-ZEV due to their small sales in California. These additional manufacturers are required to comply with the ZEV requirements, but would be allowed to meet their obligation with Plug-In Hybrids (PHEV):

Tesla
Mitsubishi
Fuji Heavy Industry (Subaru)
Jaguar Land Rover
Volvo



Model Year - ZEV Credit Percent Requirement of California vehicle sales

2012 ------------ 0.79%
2018 ------------ 2.00%
2019 ------------ 4.00%
2020 ------------ 6.00%
2021 ------------ 8.00%
2022 ----------- 10.00%
2023 ----------- 12.00%
2024 ----------- 14.00%
2025 ----------- 16.00%

***CARB-ZEV states- California’s ZEV program has now been adopted by the states of Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island and Vermont. These states, known as the “Section 177 states,” have chosen to adopt California's air quality standards in lieu of federal requirements as authorized under Section 177 of the federal Clean Air Act. Additionally, California’s GHG standards are now federal law. Maine, Washington DC and New Jersey are participating with ZEV initiatives, but are not signatory CARB-ZEV states.

^ That would be a great post to start the official tony williams compliance thread

Does the Volt play into that list all to get GM any credits?
Will we see Subaru making its way onto the IVM list soon?

Rumor has it that the new 2016 Volt is going to have 50 miles of pure electric range. If it were me, I'd hold out for that, or I would do a short lease (24 months) on another Leaf and wait for the Leaf Gen2 (150 mil range rumored) or the Tesla Model 3.

LTLFTcomposite said:

^ That would be a great post to start the official tony williams compliance thread

Does the Volt play into that list all to get GM any credits?
Will we see Subaru making its way onto the IVM list soon?

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The Volt does not get ZEV credit, because it isn't a Zero Emision Vehicle.

There is exactly ONE car that gets a ZEV credit for a car with an exhaust pipe, and that is the BMW i3 with the 650cc motorcycle engine (so-called REx). It must burn all the electricity first and can't have a fossil fuel powered subsequent range longer than the EV range.

Is Subaru growing in California? If not, I doubt you will see a battery EV from them anytime soon.

TonyWilliams said:

1) Compliance-only - These cars are sold only in ***CARB-ZEV states.

cars like ... Ford Focus EV, ...

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Ford Focus EV is sold nationwide. I almost bought one, years ago, and I'm not in a CARB state (Washington).

"Compliance Plus?" There has got to be a better way to go with this.

Every qualification of Non Compliance fits Nissan except the requirement to do so. The word Compliance has so much negative connotation, it should not be used for everything.

To me; Compliance Plus is the FFEV. A car offered in non CARB states in Compliance numbers.

D3Leaf said:

My bad on the missing location; updated the profile. I live in a rural county, 30 miles northwest of Nashville.

Thanks for the replies and nice spreadsheet DeckerEgo and there are a lot of variables for determining anyone's CF; which is a discussion for another time.

First let me say that if I could afford a Tesla, that is what we would have, hands down. I am buying and not leasing, so I anticipate the average sale price to be 35K +/- 3K and we keep the Federal/State EV Incentives.

Anyway, we (the family) like VW's as our other four cars are all VW Beetles, so I am leaning toward the E-Golf.

And what does the phrase "Compliance Car" actually mean?

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great start on providing a profile but you told us nothing about your commute. THAT is the MOST important part of the evaluation process. If your commute is 60 miles round trip, you can make it for probably at least 4 years (maybe much more depending on how these new batteries fare) with modest driving.

Being in TN, I am guessing you do have public charging options. Get familiar with their requirements and either download the apps to your phone or keep a reference map in your car. Not suggesting you use them other than to try them out to get the hang of them but always want to know your options.

and another thing; Is the Soul available in your area? that would be a surprise to me but Kia has hinted a wider distribution in the future so expanding in LEAF strong areas first does make sense

Smart EDs are pretty awesome, and aren't compliance cars (though inventory is still weak outside the coasts). If you need a heavy commuter car and can fit the range, the smart ED is by far the lowest cost EV on the market through their lease program (1400 due at signing, $139 a month outside CARB states and even cheaper in CARB states for 3 years 10k miles annual).

Real-world smart range is also extremely good at 55 mph and under, compared to the EPA estimate, and the car does extremely well in warm climates.