New 2013 Leaf purchase / lease questions - Nov. 2014

Good morning MNL'ers.

The 24 month lease on my 2012 Leaf SL will be fulfilled in Dec. 2014. The terms were $0 out the door, $240 / month for a total of $5760 for two years. I do have the option to extend the lease under the current terms for another year. Meanwhile, I'm exploring other options.

There are still a few new 2013 Leafs floating around at dealerships out there. Assuming a new car which has a full warranty clock that begins at the time of sale, what are the concerns about buying a car with a 2 year old battery system?

I mention buying because, at least one of these dealerships is saying they can't write a lease on a 2013. Is this correct?


Also, can anyone verify what incentives and cash offers can be combined on a 2013? For instance, can a VPP (Invoice price, $1000 customer cash) be combined with $1000 owner loyalty cash?

The reason a 2013 new purchase is attractive to me is the low purchase price. Here's an example: 2013 Leaf S purchase with VPP, Dealer, Owner Loyalty and Fed. tax incentive.

26986 VPP Invoice Pricing
+1127 Charger pkg. (Invoice)
28113 Subtotal
- 1000 VPP customer cash
27113 Subtotal
- 7500 Dealer Cash
19613 Subtotal
- 1000 Owner Loyalty
18613 Subtotal
- 7500 Federal Tax incentive
$11,113 Total - (Zero $ sales tax for EV’s in WA. state)

Looking at it another way, is it worth a $5000 premium (~ $16,000 after incentives) to get a fresh battery and a 2015 Leaf S (with the option of 0% financing for up to 72 months)? Personally, I feel like at that price point I would be more inclined to extend my current lease and wait for the gen. 2 Leaf.

Can't wait to hear all your thoughts!
Thanks,
Gary

brg2290 said:

...
Looking at it another way, is it worth a $5000 premium (~ $16,000 after incentives) to get a fresh battery and a 2015 Leaf S (with the option of 0% financing for up to 72 months)? Personally, I feel like at that price point I would be more inclined to extend my current lease and wait for the gen. 2 Leaf.

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I think extending the lease makes the most sense.
Although there is nothing but rumor on when the Gen 2 LEAF with larger pack will be available.
Your lease extension may run out before they are available.

The 2013 is a very good price.
No wonder valuation on 2011 used LEAF is so low
$5,000 is less than some are reporting they can purchase a replacement heat resistant battery.
At the right dealer it might be <$4,200.

The biggest concern about buying a 2 year old "new" Leaf is the battery, and how the car was kept in storage. If the car sat in storage in a very warm part of the country at 100% charge for many months, the battery could be significantly degraded. Just because it shows 12 bars doesn't mean there isn't real degradation....you won't lose that first bar until capacity has dropped below around 85% or so. Unlike the other half of the state, Eastern WA can have very warm summers as I'm sure you're aware.

Before buying such a car, if you don't have one already, I would suggest getting/borrowing a tool like LeafSpy to check the battery of the car(s) you are considering, and if you don't know what the numbers mean to post them here and ask others who do know for their advice.

As far as not being able to lease a "new" 2013 model, that may be a restriction by NMAC. Other banks probably won't have an issue, but if you're leasing you won't be able to take advantage of the $7500 Federal credit unless the lessor is NMAC.

TimLee - good point on the battery replacement cost / idea, and an interesting way of looking at it.

RonDawg - Thanks for bringing up the point about heat exposure. One of the cars I have been checking on is in a locale that gets very hot in the summer time. Not sure of the production date, but conceivably could be two summers worth of high temp exposure. So how would I go about borrowing one of these devices - start a thread asking for a loaner?

Gary

I leased my 2013 new with 50 miles back in April. The door sticker says date of manufacture is "12/13", meaning the car was built only 11 months ago. Thus, I wouldn't assume a 2013 you see now has necessarily been sitting on the lot for 2 years. Check the door sticker.

FWIW, the other day when the temp went from 30F=>60F, I had my best GIDs reading ever: 284. It normally is in the mid 270s.

Just sitting on the lot in hot weather might not have hurt the car if it was never driven and had less than 75% charge. It's sitting with near 100% charge, especially in hot weather, that you have to worry about.

LeftieBiker said:

Just sitting on the lot in hot weather might not have hurt the car if it was never driven and had less than 75% charge. It's sitting with near 100% charge, especially in hot weather, that you have to worry about.

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Would the very basic battery check that Nissan does at the dealership show the SOC history of the car, or will I need something more sophisticated like a LeafSpy or GID-Meter?

jlv said:

I leased my 2013 new with 50 miles back in April. The door sticker says date of manufacture is "12/13", meaning the car was built only 11 months ago. Thus, I wouldn't assume a 2013 you see now has necessarily been sitting on the lot for 2 years. Check the door sticker.

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I requested the manufacturing date from the dealer last night...so, we'll see.

jlv said:

I leased my 2013 new with 50 miles back in April. The door sticker says date of manufacture is "12/13", meaning the car was built only 11 months ago. Thus, I wouldn't assume a 2013 you see now has necessarily been sitting on the lot for 2 years. Check the door sticker.

FWIW, the other day when the temp went from 30F=>60F, I had my best GIDs reading ever: 284. It normally is in the mid 270s.

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Sounds like we are very close t the same situation - Mine has a 12/13 date on door as well and I also recently noticed an impressive jump in GIDS when temps moderated. I thought it had to do with a recent full discharge/recharge cycle. Interesting.

To OP - Check out the potential car via LeafSpy and see where it is, significant issues should be obvious that way I would think.

In any case I agree - I would probably extend the lease and see what happens in the next year. A larger battery in a new model would be of benefit; just think about what the value of any remaining smaller battery vehicles on the lot will be once a larger option is there! You might pick up a 2015 for less than the 2013's are now....

brg2290 said:

Would the very basic battery check that Nissan does at the dealership show the SOC history of the car, or will I need something more sophisticated like a LeafSpy or GID-Meter?

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The basic annual "test" doesn't tell you much.
Would show less than five stars if vehicle use had been bad for the battery.
But does not give you the detailed battery info.

The dealer equipment could tell you everything.

But I'm not sure whether dealer will do that.
If they want to sell electric vehicles they probably should, including info on software updates, battery resets, maintenance history, etc.
But unfortunately I don't think many sellers of used vehicles do that

brg2290 said:

RonDawg - Thanks for bringing up the point about heat exposure. One of the cars I have been checking on is in a locale that gets very hot in the summer time. Not sure of the production date, but conceivably could be two summers worth of high temp exposure. So how would I go about borrowing one of these devices - start a thread asking for a loaner?

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You may want to check Marketplace if anybody is selling their battery measurement tools, or start an ad there looking to buy one.

LeftieBiker said:

Just sitting on the lot in hot weather might not have hurt the car if it was never driven and had less than 75% charge. It's sitting with near 100% charge, especially in hot weather, that you have to worry about.

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Even if kept at a low SOC, 2+ years stored in high heat isn't going to be good for the battery. And Eastern WA/OR can get very warm in the summer.

RonDawg said:

brg2290 said:

RonDawg - Thanks for bringing up the point about heat exposure. One of the cars I have been checking on is in a locale that gets very hot in the summer time. Not sure of the production date, but conceivably could be two summers worth of high temp exposure. So how would I go about borrowing one of these devices - start a thread asking for a loaner?

Click to expand...

You may want to check Marketplace if anybody is selling their battery measurement tools, or start an ad there looking to buy one.

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IF you already have a phone compatible with LeafSpy then you can get it up and running for very short money - and likely if you buy the car it will be useful well after the purchase.

In any case I agree - I would probably extend the lease and see what happens in the next year. A larger battery in a new model would be of benefit; just think about what the value of any remaining smaller battery vehicles on the lot will be once a larger option is there! You might pick up a 2015 for less than the 2013's are now....

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Slow1 - thanks for this. Yours is the second vote for extending the current lease. I've sort of felt like extending the lease was like throwing $2000 or so per year down the drain, whereas a purchase of the 2013 for > $12,000 after fed. tax incentive would at least break even if I chose to sell in 1, 2 or three years. When I initially leased, it seemed like new EV and EREV model introductions were slow in coming. I guess it still feels like that (at least at a level of affordability I'm comfortable with), but as far as projecting values, with the Leaf and Volt gen. 2 on the horizon, maybe even a cheap 2013 is a crap shoot from a resale perspective.

RonDawg said:

LeftieBiker said:

Just sitting on the lot in hot weather might not have hurt the car if it was never driven and had less than 75% charge. It's sitting with near 100% charge, especially in hot weather, that you have to worry about.

Click to expand...

Even if kept at a low SOC, 2+ years stored in high heat isn't going to be good for the battery. And Eastern WA/OR can get very warm in the summer.

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Unless you're talking about Summers where it reaches 90+F and then stays hot at night, for days on end, I stick with what I wrote. The pack has a *lot* of thermal mass, so if it isn't being charged or discharged it will take a long, long time to to get hot enough from ambient temps to suffer damage. Also, many now believe that the '13 has a more heat-tolerant battery than previous Leafs.

RonDawg said:

Even if kept at a low SOC, 2+ years stored in high heat isn't going to be good for the battery. And Eastern WA/OR can get very warm in the summer.

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Except that the car might be less than 1 year old.

LeftieBiker said:

RonDawg said:

LeftieBiker said:

Just sitting on the lot in hot weather might not have hurt the car if it was never driven and had less than 75% charge. It's sitting with near 100% charge, especially in hot weather, that you have to worry about.

Click to expand...

Even if kept at a low SOC, 2+ years stored in high heat isn't going to be good for the battery. And Eastern WA/OR can get very warm in the summer.

Click to expand...

Unless you're talking about Summers where it reaches 90+F and then stays hot at night, for days on end, I stick with what I wrote. The pack has a *lot* of thermal mass, so if it isn't being charged or discharged it will take a long, long time to to get hot enough from ambient temps to suffer damage. Also, many now believe that the '13 has a more heat-tolerant battery than previous Leafs.

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And I'll stick with what I told the OP and advise him to carefully check the battery. He seems to be leaning in that direction with his request to see if he can borrow someone's measurement tool.

jlv said:

RonDawg said:

Even if kept at a low SOC, 2+ years stored in high heat isn't going to be good for the battery. And Eastern WA/OR can get very warm in the summer.

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Except that the car might be less than 1 year old.

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Still won't hurt to check the battery status of a Leaf that has been sitting around that long unsold.

LeftieBiker said:

Unless you're talking about Summers where it reaches 90+F and then stays hot at night, for days on end, I stick with what I wrote. The pack has a *lot* of thermal mass, so if it isn't being charged or discharged it will take a long, long time to to get hot enough from ambient temps to suffer damage. Also, many now believe that the '13 has a more heat-tolerant battery than previous Leafs.

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One of the cars is in Las Vegas. It has one summer under it belt there, but, looking back at the temps., it was a hot one, with July, August and Sept. topping out pretty much every day above 90, and many days above 100 (some above 110 ). The other car is in Montana.

jlv said:

Except that the car might be less than 1 year old.

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It appears from VIN's that the two cars I've been focusing on were Nov. or Dec. 2013 mfg. dates.

TimLee said:

[The dealer equipment could tell you everything.

But I'm not sure whether dealer will do that.
If they want to sell electric vehicles they probably should, including info on software updates, battery resets, maintenance history, etc.

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Hi Tim.
When you say "The dealer equipment could tell you everything", I think it's at least worth a try to request this info. before a deal can be completed. Do you have any first hand knowledge of the dealer test? Is there a specific test I should ask for, and what data should I expect to receive? The 96 cell data, AHr's, SOH, Hx...more?
Thanks,
Gary

brg2290 said:

... I think it's at least worth a try to request this info. before a deal can be completed. Do you have any first hand knowledge of the dealer test? Is there a specific test I should ask for, and what data should I expect to receive? The 96 cell data, AHr's, SOH, Hx...more?
...

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I don't have detailed info on the possible dealer tests.
I haven't gotten anything other than the annual stars "test" report.
I asked the first year but they were going to charge for it.
Some dealers did provide some test reports at no cost.
You might search MNL, but it may be hard to find.
What you suggest seems good.

The more involved test that has to be done from below Low Battery Warning is the Cell Voltage Loss Inspection (CVLI). Indicates weak cells that the service manual says should be replaced presumably under warranty.
LEAF Spy Pro can also test this and it reports I have about eight weak cell pairs at 45 months from manufacture, 42 months in service, and 23,326 miles.
But so far I have not read any reports of someone pushing Nissan to replace weak cells reported by CVLI.