2013 Leaf SV

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recmob

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
57
Location
Cocoa, FL
Contemplating purchase of a 2013 Leaf with a couple of questions:

1) Not sure the Leaf is right for my needs or not. I drive 42 miles each way to work. I can charge at work (and home) so that's not a problem, and I do have 220 available at both ends. Of that 42 miles, 85% is highway (I-95, flatland, Florida). I drive 25,000 miles a year, so leasing is out of the question due to the mileage overage charges at lease end. How practical is the Leaf in this realm, especially as the pack ages?

2) I believe a new 2015 is out of question also. I cannot take advantage of the full $7500 tax credit as I don't pay that much in year - wish it was possible to carry over the balance of the credit to the following year. There is a used 2013 Leaf SV available in my area. The dealer wants just over $21k for it, and it only has 600 miles on it. I assume its a demo model that hasn't sold, but will have to ask.

They are willing to go down to $20500.00, which I think is a bit high. Yes its low mileage, but its also a 2013 and 2015's aren't that much more. I've seen them for around $25k, after tax rebate. KBB lists a 2013 Leaf SV in excellent condition (with this mileage) as going for $18,900.00 in a private sale, or just over $15,000 at dealer trade-in value.

For those 'in the know' (if this vehicle will work for my needs) is it realistic to offer the dealer KBB value?
 
You need to check the battery capacity with Leaf Spy or a similar app., because you will need it all if you drive much above 60MPH. However, that also means that if you buy the car it probably won't fit your needs in two or three years. I'd go for the best lease deal you can get.
 
Couple of suggestions:
Are you buying for Cash?

New:
Not sure how FL Car taxes work, But can someone Who will be able to take the Federal Tax Credit $7500 buy it for your Take the Federal Tax, then Sell you the "Used" car to you? And get a New 2015? Does Federal Tax Credit have a minimum Car Hold time?


Used:
Have you looked at getting one from Georgia, and have it shipped to FL, With GA tax rebates, the cars sell for less on the used car market.
 
1) Is it practical for your commute? Yes, if your workplace charging is reliable, the LEAF is an excellent choice. However, in Florida the battery will lose capacity and the warranty for capacity is 60 months/60k miles, so it is unlikely that you would ever qualify for a warranty replacement. Nevertheless, with a 42 mile commute and charging on both ends you could do it a long time even with a severely degraded battery. And a replacement battery is only $5500 plus installation; given how much you would be saving on gas that would be money well spent to keep the car going for many more years.

2) With regard to buying a 2015, the advantage is that it has a "lizard" battery that is supposed to last better in heat (we won't know for sure for another year or two). Yes, you can claim the $7500 tax credit even if you don't pay enough income taxes: you just lease the car then immediately buy out the lease (NMAC, the leasing company, will take the tax credit and it will be used as a down payment on the car). No need to worry about the miles. But even with the tax credit, a 2015 will cost somewhat more than the 2013.

That said, $20,500 is a decent price for a near new 2013 LEAF if the car will get the full 36 month/36k miles warranty. Has it been licensed before? Was it a demo? Is this a new or used sale? If used, then the KBB price is more reasonable (and you can do a lot better in the used LEAF market). If this purchase counts as new, the full warranty has considerable value.

Also, a LEAF that has been sitting around for so long likely has significant battery degradation. I suggest that you borrow a meter from a Florida LEAF owner to determine exactly what the condition of the battery is. Without knowing that, it is hard to place a value on the 2013 LEAF. The battery condition is a lot more important than the number of miles the car has on it.

My 2¢.
 
LeftieBiker said:
You need to check the battery capacity with Leaf Spy or a similar app., because you will need it all if you drive much above 60MPH. However, that also means that if you buy the car it probably won't fit your needs in two or three years. I'd go for the best lease deal you can get.
Click to expand...

I considered leasing, but I'd owe $5k in mileage charges at end of lease. Leasing is only (as I recall) 12,000 miles a year. In 3 years I'll drive 75,000 miles.

Currently I drive a 1 ton diesel, and spend $460/month in diesel. Never drive over 60 mph on the highway anyhow. I'd like to go with a Leaf, but it may be better to get a Chevy Spark (for instance) at 39 mpg and $12k out the door.
 
On the new side, that is a question I asked of a dealer. Explained the situation to them and asked if they would be willing to register the car and take the credit against the sale price. Only asked one dealer, but they said no. On a private side not sure who I'd ask to do that, and besides they would have to wait themselves to get the credit back. Had not considered out of state purchase.

flyonpa said:
Couple of suggestions:
Are you buying for Cash?

New:
Not sure how FL Car taxes work, But can someone Who will be able to take the Federal Tax Credit $7500 buy it for your Take the Federal Tax, then Sell you the "Used" car to you? And get a New 2015? Does Federal Tax Credit have a minimum Car Hold time?


Used:
Have you looked at getting one from Georgia, and have it shipped to FL, With GA tax rebates, the cars sell for less on the used car market.
Click to expand...
 
I did not realize you could lease and turn around and buyout immediately. That does change things a bit and will have to look into it. I was aware of the Lizard battery, however figured it was much hotter in AZ then in FL and perhaps it wouldn't affect it as much.

As for charging at work, not a problem as I own the business :)

dgpcolorado said:
1) Is it practical for your commute? Yes, if your workplace charging is reliable, the LEAF is an excellent choice. However, in Florida the battery will lose capacity and the warranty for capacity is 60 months/60k miles, so it is unlikely that you would ever qualify for a warranty replacement. Nevertheless, with a 42 mile commute and charging on both ends you could do it a long time even with a severely degraded battery. And a replacement battery is only $5500 plus installation; given how much you would be saving on gas that would be money well spent to keep the car going for many more years.

2) With regard to buying a 2015, the advantage is that it has a "lizard" battery that is supposed to last better in heat (we won't know for sure for another year or two). Yes, you can claim the $7500 tax credit even if you don't pay enough income taxes: you just lease the car then immediately buy out the lease (NMAC, the leasing company, will take the tax credit and it will be used as a down payment on the car). No need to worry about the miles. But even with the tax credit, a 2015 will cost somewhat more than the 2013.

That said, $20,500 is a decent price for a near new 2013 LEAF if the car will get the full 36 month/36k miles warranty. Has it been licensed before? Was it a demo? Is this a new or used sale? If used, then the KBB price is more reasonable (and you can do a lot better in the used LEAF market). If this purchase counts as new, the full warranty has considerable value.

Also, a LEAF that has been sitting around for so long likely has significant battery degradation. I suggest that you borrow a meter from a Florida LEAF owner to determine exactly what the condition of the battery is. Without knowing that, it is hard to place a value on the 2013 LEAF. The battery condition is a lot more important than the number of miles the car has on it.

My 2¢.
Click to expand...
 
I like the Lease Turn Around Idea.

Check to see if there is a Lease Buyout Termination penalty, You might need to lease if for some length of time to avoid it. The Cost of Funds (Money Factor) is so low now, it would not add much to your lease cost.

If it was me, I'd Lease it for the two years, at the end of the lease period I could compute the mileage overage to see if the Buy @ end of lease would be good or bad.
Also you never know your job might change? Your Work location might change? Can you TeleCommute? That might lower your mileage also.
 
I was aware of the Lizard battery, however figured it was much hotter in AZ then in FL and perhaps it wouldn't affect it as much.
Click to expand...

Anyplace that gets temps in the mid 80s and higher in the Summer (and you see them occasionally in the Winter, I'll bet) will degrade Leaf batteries, at least pre-'15 batteries. I live in Upstate NY, and my first Summer (last year) leasing my Leaf it was 90F or above 14 times, IIRC. My 2013 now charges to 79%, considered the prequel to losing a capacity bar. Florida is hotter than Upstate NY
 
I requested more information (from the dealer with the 2013) as to why a 2013 vehicle only has 600 miles on it. The dealers reply:

"I wanted to help out with some concerns on the new Leaf. The Leaf has a 8 Year 120,000 mile warranty on the battery's and the bumper to bumper warranty and all the warranty's started on July 16th 2014. This means that your warranty has only 3 months used on it giving you 33 months left and the power train up to 60 months or 60,000 miles. The customer that purchased this car realized that he worked to far away from the house and could not charge it up fast enough to get back home everyday. He tried to make it work and finally had to trade the car back in and purchased a Nissan Versa. This is a great car for the right person with all the benifits of a new car without the new car price. Give me a call and I can go over all your questions to help you move forward with your new purchase. I look forward to working with you and to your reply."

This makes me question further if they really know what they are selling....

dgpcolorado said:
That said, $20,500 is a decent price for a near new 2013 LEAF if the car will get the full 36 month/36k miles warranty. Has it been licensed before? Was it a demo? Is this a new or used sale? If used, then the KBB price is more reasonable (and you can do a lot better in the used LEAF market). If this purchase counts as new, the full warranty has considerable value.

Also, a LEAF that has been sitting around for so long likely has significant battery degradation. I suggest that you borrow a meter from a Florida LEAF owner to determine exactly what the condition of the battery is. Without knowing that, it is hard to place a value on the 2013 LEAF. The battery condition is a lot more important than the number of miles the car has on it.My 2¢.
Click to expand...
 
recmob said:
I did not realize you could lease and turn around and buyout immediately. That does change things a bit and will have to look into it. I was aware of the Lizard battery, however figured it was much hotter in AZ then in FL and perhaps it wouldn't affect it as much...
Click to expand...
There is a fee for buying out a lease but it shouldn't be large, especially compared to the value of the tax credit used for the deposit. And you can wait until the end of the lease, as flyonpa mentioned above. The lease becomes a partial loan on the car and the residual value is due on the buyout.

Do not be fooled into thinking that only people in very hot areas, such as Phoenix, are affected by accelerated battery degradation on the older LEAF batteries. There are plenty of LEAF owners in Florida that have seen it as well. The reason is that it is warm in FL and it never really cools off. So, the battery continues to degrade slowly all day, all year. There are some in Florida who will qualify for the replacement warranty. My sense is that you will not qualify because you will exceed 60k miles before the battery degrades to the 66% capacity warranty level. But if you were to start off with a low mileage car that already has a lot of degradation, you might be able to qualify for a new battery before the warranty expires. Hard to say for sure.

The reason for suggesting the 2015 is that the "lizard" battery is supposed to be more heat resistant. Nevertheless, 42 miles — even with nearly all of it on the freeway — should be fairly easy in a warm state with a battery at only 70% of capacity. If rain, wind, or cooler weather reduce range you might need to slow down or stop for a brief interim charge. Or take the plunge and buy a new battery to make the car "like new" again (the purchased replacement batteries are the new "lizard" battery).

I realize that this is a lot to take in, but with such a long commute the savings by going with the LEAF could be considerable versus buying gasoline. And driving an EV is a lot more fun, IMO.
 
Keep in mind that driving at highway speeds will drain your power a lot faster than at lower speeds: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For the range you're looking at, you should be ok, as long as you can recharge at work reliably. If your battery degrades, you may be getting a bit close on the range.

The deciding factor between the Leaf and an efficient ICE car will probably be how much time you save taking the HOV/carpool lane. I bought a 2013 Leaf SV, and it saves me 30 min/50% of my commute in rush hour traffic, so it was well worth having a bit of range anxiety in exchange for saving a ton of time in traffic!
 
Unfortunately no carpool / hov lanes in this area, but I'm generally on the road before the rush and leave my shop after the rush is over. Rarely hit grid lock unless there is an accident on the highway. I've 'conditioned' myself to drive at 60 mph and currently average 22 mpg in my '03 Cummins, but 36 gallon fill ups (weekly) are a killer. The bi-fold door operates on a 220 30 amp breaker and I can tie in to the junction box for a plug. Whatever I end up doing, the truck will remain at the biz location so I'll have it available for daily use if needed, as I use it for towing a large trailer when needed.

Aggrocragg said:
Keep in mind that driving at highway speeds will drain your power a lot faster than at lower speeds: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For the range you're looking at, you should be ok, as long as you can recharge at work reliably. If your battery degrades, you may be getting a bit close on the range.

The deciding factor between the Leaf and an efficient ICE car will probably be how much time you save taking the HOV/carpool lane. I bought a 2013 Leaf SV, and it saves me 30 min/50% of my commute in rush hour traffic, so it was well worth having a bit of range anxiety in exchange for saving a ton of time in traffic!
Click to expand...
 
Oddly, after getting a Leaf my perception of a moderate amount of congestion is no longer a problem, it slows down the rest of traffic to the pace I want for better range. Moving with traffic at 60 is a lot better than feeling like a rolling pylon when the rest of the pack is going 75.

42 miles each way won't be a problem. The 2013 does have 80% charge mode which you could be use, but the 2015 probably has a better battery, it is un-proven which is better for a Florida driver. Even if you do get more slow degradation from heat, you won't have to deal with a cold battery and then having to run the heater and defroster, which can really eat up the KW. On balance you may have more effective range in a 70 degree winter than our 30 degree winter.
 
I don't recommend that anyone in Florida buy anything but a 2015 Leaf. My battery capacity is down 23% in <3 years. The heat here, coupled with the high mileage you are going to put on it, will drain your capacity very quickly.
 
keydiver said:
I don't recommend that anyone in Florida buy anything but a 2015 Leaf. My battery capacity is down 23% in <3 years. The heat here, coupled with the high mileage you are going to put on it, will drain your capacity very quickly.
Click to expand...
FWIW: I live in FLA, 18 months into a 2013 SV 9k+ miles, I charge to 100% all the time and up to now I've seen little to zero battery degradation.
YMMV
 

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