Contemplating buying a 2012 SL this week

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tracieknits

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
9
We reached an agreement with the dealer - $38,270 minus $10,150 Nissan motor cash back - so $28,120. We put $1000 down, but just realized we didn't sign any paperwork before we left. We know about the $7500 federal tax incentive, but I don't think NY state has any additional incentives. There are exactly 1000 miles on the car at the end of our test drive - they said it's a new car, and that the miles were test drives and demos.

Is that a good deal? It seems like we reached that agreement really painlessly. You know how you want them to make you think they're getting beat up in the back room for even suggesting the deal they are offering you.

So what we're wondering is whether we should pay $28,120 now for a 2012 Leaf SL or wait a few months and buy the 2013 SL when it comes out in our area. We're not sure how much more the 2013 will be, and just how much the improvements are worth to us.

Wikipedia states they've only sold a total of just under 20K Leaf in the US so they are nowhere near running out of the federal tax incentive (200K) - but hubby thinks that this tax incentive might get axed in the federal budget talks in March. So there's no chance that they'd take it away in 2012, is there? if we buy the car before they end the program, we'd be good, right?
 
i wouldnt buy "as new" a car with 1000 miles on it. you appear to be paying a new car price.

as to the rest, you are going to have to ck out the 2013 pricing and options, as well as the improvements, which notably include a faster standard charger.


would you lease?
i dont, but you may find that attractive.
 
tracieknits said:
We reached an agreement with the dealer - $38,270 minus $10,150 Nissan motor cash back - so $28,120. We put $1000 down, but just realized we didn't sign any paperwork before we left. We know about the $7500 federal tax incentive, but I don't think NY state has any additional incentives. There are exactly 1000 miles on the car at the end of our test drive - they said it's a new car, and that the miles were test drives and demos.

Is that a good deal? It seems like we reached that agreement really painlessly. You know how you want them to make you think they're getting beat up in the back room for even suggesting the deal they are offering you.

So what we're wondering is whether we should pay $28,120 now for a 2012 Leaf SL or wait a few months and buy the 2013 SL when it comes out in our area. We're not sure how much more the 2013 will be, and just how much the improvements are worth to us.

Wikipedia states they've only sold a total of just under 20K Leaf in the US so they are nowhere near running out of the federal tax incentive (200K) - but hubby thinks that this tax incentive might get axed in the federal budget talks in March. So there's no chance that they'd take it away in 2012, is there? if we buy the car before they end the program, we'd be good, right?
Click to expand...


I would not buy a demo car without knowing the details of the pack charging history. I would also get a 2013 at this point and do a lease. I would not buy a 2012 at that price with 1K dealer miles.
 
I guess that's a fair point.

I always thought leasing was for people who want a new car every three years. We're definitely more of a 8 to 10 year, get our money's worth kind of family.
 
EVDRIVER said:
I would not buy a demo car without knowing the details of the pack charging history. I would also get a 2013 at this point and do a lease. I would not buy a 2012 at that price with 1K dealer miles.
Click to expand...

Ok, now I'm starting to feel really ignorant. What kind of details would I need to know and how would this matter? Could they have damaged the battery that quickly?

What price do you think is more fair with a 2012, and why would you lease? I always thought leasing was a really really bad deal, unless you were the type that really wanted to be in a new car every 3 years.
 
Here in TN a local dealer is likewise currently selling their demonstrator silver 2012 SL Leaf for $24,900 w/ 925 miles and over the phone a salesman suggested reducing it as much as $1200 more because of "internet pricing". It was classified as used and therefore I was told the $7500 federal incentive was not available (I forgot to ask about the state's $2500 incentive). I was inquiring about it for someone else as I already have a 2011 SL. I did not go to look at it, so I don't know if the condition affected its price. I believe it's been on sale for about 3 weeks now. One factor I was concerned about was how often the car was heavily accelerated -- I rarely do so myself and always use Eco mode. Among other things it probably wears out the CV joints quickly...
 
tracieknits said:
EVDRIVER said:
I would not buy a demo car without knowing the details of the pack charging history. I would also get a 2013 at this point and do a lease. I would not buy a 2012 at that price with 1K dealer miles.
Click to expand...

Ok, now I'm starting to feel really ignorant. What kind of details would I need to know and how would this matter? Could they have damaged the battery that quickly?

What price do you think is more fair with a 2012, and why would you lease? I always thought leasing was a really really bad deal, unless you were the type that really wanted to be in a new car every 3 years.
Click to expand...

Read some of the threads here. Yes they could have left the car at 100% charge 24/7. What city is the car located? You are going to hear the same from most everyone and you should be able to get a lease deal on a 2012 where all your costs for three years will be about the same as the depreciation you take on the car in year one.
 
i dont lease, either.
but lotta folks on this board like it, claiming they are relieved of battery degradation issues and can more easily (they think) than purchasers move on to improved tech at the end of the lease. degradation seems to be a problem in very hot (read months of over 100-degree temps).
this is a developing technology, so it should be on an improving curve.
i want to keep for years and the issue for me will be buying a new battery and getting credit for the old one around year 5 or six.
range decreases with age in battery-based cars.


i dont lease and am pleased that i didnt. I didnt want a cap on mileage and I dont want to have to do a monthly payment, deal with the car bank, and the turn in calculations. i figure i can sell the car when i want to replace it; prolly in more than 5 years.
but i live in coastal CA and heat is not an issue.
20 months and 20k later and my battery is pretty much what it was early on.
 
thankyouOB said:
i dont lease, either.
but lotta folks on this board like it, claiming they are relieved of battery degradation issues and can more easily (they think) than purchasers move on to improved tech at the end of the lease. degradation seems to be a problem in very hot (read months of over 100-degree temps).
this is a developing technology, so it should be on an improving curve.
i want to keep for years and the issue for me will be buying a new battery and getting credit for the old one around year 5 or six.
range decreases with age in battery-based cars.


i dont lease and am pleased that i didnt. I didnt want a cap on mileage and I dont want to have to do a monthly payment, deal with the car bank, and the turn in calculations. i figure i can sell the car when i want to replace it; prolly in more than 5 years.
but i live in coastal CA and heat is not an issue.
20 months and 20k later and my battery is pretty much what it was early on.
Click to expand...


Yes sell it for about $7k. With the lease deals now it is insane not to lease.
 
MikeD said:
Here in TN a local dealer is likewise currently selling their demonstrator silver 2012 SL Leaf for $24,900 w/ 925 miles and over the phone a salesman suggested reducing it as much as $1200 more because of "internet pricing". It was classified as used and therefore I was told the $7500 federal incentive was not available (I forgot to ask about the state's $2500 incentive). I was inquiring about it for someone else as I already have a 2011 SL. I did not go to look at it, so I don't know if the condition affected its price. I believe it's been on sale for about 3 weeks now. One factor I was concerned about was how often the car was heavily accelerated -- I rarely do so myself and always use Eco mode. Among other things it probably wears out the CV joints quickly...
Click to expand...

Excellent points. TYVM. I will show this to hubby.
 
EVDRIVER said:
tracieknits said:
What price do you think is more fair with a 2012, and why would you lease? I always thought leasing was a really really bad deal, unless you were the type that really wanted to be in a new car every 3 years.
Click to expand...

Read some of the threads here. Yes they could have left the car at 100% charge 24/7. What city is the car located? You are going to hear the same from most everyone and you should be able to get a lease deal on a 2012 where all your costs for three years will be about the same as the depreciation you take on the car in year one.
Click to expand...

We are a bit north of Albany NY - so we get some pretty cold spells in the winter, and about six days a year above 90 degrees. I figure since the car sells so well in Finland, the cold isn't *that" big of a deal, but maybe I'm just being ignorant again. We do keep our cars in the garage.
 
EVDRIVER said:
thankyouOB said:
i dont lease, either.
but lotta folks on this board like it, claiming they are relieved of battery degradation issues and can more easily (they think) than purchasers move on to improved tech at the end of the lease. degradation seems to be a problem in very hot (read months of over 100-degree temps).
this is a developing technology, so it should be on an improving curve.
i want to keep for years and the issue for me will be buying a new battery and getting credit for the old one around year 5 or six.
range decreases with age in battery-based cars.


i dont lease and am pleased that i didnt. I didnt want a cap on mileage and I dont want to have to do a monthly payment, deal with the car bank, and the turn in calculations. i figure i can sell the car when i want to replace it; prolly in more than 5 years.
but i live in coastal CA and heat is not an issue.
20 months and 20k later and my battery is pretty much what it was early on.
Click to expand...


Yes sell it for about $7k. With the lease deals now it is insane not to lease.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that input -- I will show that to hubby as well.

So the $7500K tax incentive should go toward the lease cost then? With 1000 miles on the car, can we negotiate something like zero cash down and $150 a month for three years/15K miles year? We live in NY state and it looks like there is no sales tax or registration for the first year of owning an EV. Maybe only a transfer fee.
 
IMHO,

MY2012 Leaf SL has at least next pos's:

+ It's Japanese (better quality).
+ 280 N*m torque (more than 10% better vs. MY2013's 250 N*m).
+ It will be rare car quit soon (it's only about 50k Leafs sold worldwide before end of 2012, and most of them are not 2012 SL's. Think how much would cost an original Japanese car that have only e.g. 10.000 copies worldwide?)
+ They didn't yet tried to reduce price by using CHEAPER (= less quality) materials (e.g. like in MY2013's motor).

And about 6,6 kW charger... Do you really know places that can suggest such power from socket? E.g. in Europe common sockets provide 240V * 10-16A = 2,4 - 3,8 kW. So 3,6 kW charger is just enough. You will very rarely find an electricity socket that provides more than 16A (3,8kW)!!
6,6kW onboard charger is not enough to charge in 4 hours. There are also should be 25-32A (240V) socket! When common sockets are 10-16A (240V).
 
EVDRIVER said:
thankyouOB said:
i dont lease, either.
but lotta folks on this board like it, claiming they are relieved of battery degradation issues and can more easily (they think) than purchasers move on to improved tech at the end of the lease. degradation seems to be a problem in very hot (read months of over 100-degree temps).
this is a developing technology, so it should be on an improving curve.
i want to keep for years and the issue for me will be buying a new battery and getting credit for the old one around year 5 or six.
range decreases with age in battery-based cars.


i dont lease and am pleased that i didnt. I didnt want a cap on mileage and I dont want to have to do a monthly payment, deal with the car bank, and the turn in calculations. i figure i can sell the car when i want to replace it; prolly in more than 5 years.
but i live in coastal CA and heat is not an issue.
20 months and 20k later and my battery is pretty much what it was early on.
Click to expand...


Yes sell it for about $7k. With the lease deals now it is insane not to lease.
Click to expand...

yes, true. but some of us dont like leasing with all that it entails.

---
in 2011, i paid 20k after incentives from CA and USA.
i save $2300 a year in gasoline costs.
after 6 years, I will have used the car and it will have cost me 6.5k.
so ... you do the math.
today, it is another calculation -- but the lease BS with the dealer is still there.
 
Ok, I might be wrong about NY state sales tax. This site says there's no sales tax or registration fees, but I haven't seen that listed anywhere else:
http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/energyhome/state-electric-vehicle-incentives-state-chart.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Den - that's an interesting point. I'm trying to get hubby to log in now and read all of this. He's the electrical engineer. I'm the housewife ;-P
 
Den said:
IMHO,

MY2012 Leaf SL has at least next pos's:

+ It's Japanese (better quality).
+ 280 N*m torque (more than 10% better vs. MY2013's 250 N*m).
+ It will be rare car quit soon (it's only about 50k Leafs sold worldwide before end of 2012, and most of them are not 2012 SL's. Think how much would cost an original Japanese car that have only e.g. 10.000 copies worldwide?)
+ They didn't yet tried to reduce price by using CHEAPER (= less quality) materials (e.g. like in MY2013's motor).

And about 6,6 kW charger... Do you really know places that can suggest such power from socket? E.g. in Europe common sockets provide 240V * 10-16A = 2,4 - 3,8 kW. So 3,6 kW charger is just enough. You will very rarely find an electricity socket that provides more than 16A (3,8kW)!!
6,6kW onboard charger is not enough to charge in 4 hours. There are also should be 25-32A (240V) socket! When common sockets are 10-16A (240V).
Click to expand...

1) Poor build quality of a Japanese car, thin paint, tons of loose connectors, basic parts failure, etc. Nothing to brag about here.
2) If the 0-60 is the same or the overall performance is the same who cares
3) Rare is pointless on a car like this, EVs depreciate like laptops and there is as much "rare" here as a Walkman.
4) I charge at 6.7 kw on public stations weekly. Never at home as it is not needed even though everyone will "think" they need it, mark my owrds on this one.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Den said:
IMHO,


2) If the 0-60 is the same or the overall performance is the same who cares
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

E.g. it is better chance to get out from / drive through deep snow with higher torque.

And is 0-60 is same for sure? I didn' see any official or measured numbers.
 
Ok, thank you everyone so much for your input. Hubby just called the dealership and said we're not going through with the deal as-is. He's going to do a lot more reading over the next few days and decide whether we're going to do the 2012 now, or the 2013 later.

I really appreciate all of your help :)
Tracie
 
I didn't read anywhere about your planned usage of the LEAF. Please give us your commute, if any, or particulars of driving distance. Once a month to grandma's house? A weekly tourist watching trip to Niagra Falls?

Secondly, I would eliminate the concept of keeping this car for a bazillion years, unless you really like replacing expensive batteries. The good news is your weather is unlikely to have accelerated battery losses from heat. The bad news is that you'll have range loss from cold batteries and heater use. So, again, we need your planned travel patterns.

I will strongly suggest that if you're coming anywhere close to 50 miles per day of travel without recharging, I would get the 2013 with a heat pump (vice resistance heater in 2011-2012 and 2013 "S" base model).
 
If I were in the market for a LEAF today and could do without 6 kW charging and a more efficient heater, I'd look for a great deal on a used 2011. I'd try to buy from a private party in a moderate to cool climate, and ship the car if necessary. Like thankyouOB, I hate the idea of leasing (even if it pencils out well) and prefer to own things outright. I rather enjoy life without consumer debt and lease obligations...
 

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