LeftieBiker
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:09 pm

How do you plan to stop the government from keeping it?
Write the law to allocate the same number of dollars to the return side as is collected. Return those funds annually, rather than creating a "fund" that can easily be raided. Nothing is perfect, of course.
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SageBrush
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:30 pm

@Johnlocke and @nubo,
You both make valid points but I find it interesting that no one has yet to comment on the OP other than Oil-y who does not understand it.
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WetEV
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:11 am

SageBrush wrote:This article
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -and-india

should be required reading by all, and forced reading for all the bozos who think a $10 a month surcharge to the electricity bill to curb global warming is too much.

I have not read the source article yet but I expect to see resource wars not included. Even so, they estimate $50 a ton CO2 in the US and a global impact of $400 a ton.

So e.g.,
a kWh of electricity produced from coal emits ~ 2.2 lbs of CO2
> 900 kWh causes $50 of domestic and $400 of global damage
That works out to 5.5 cents a kWh domestic cost and 44 cents a kWh global cost.
Lots of unknowns in computing the future cost of warming. The source article is a middle of the road sort of number:
Central specifications show high global SCC values (median, US$417 per tonne of CO2 (tCO2); 66% confidence intervals, US$177–805 per tCO2)
Also see:

https://lolow.github.io/publication/country-level_scc/

Not much to discuss, the discount rate used is probably too high which makes the damage estimate less than it should be.

Russia wins under climate change. Wonder if this has anything to do with why Russians are interfering in USA elections?
SageBrush wrote:NG is not too far behind those numbers.
NG is less than half of those numbers.

First, carbon content per BTU:

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11

Then consider efficiency, coal plants are less than 40% efficient. NG combined cycle plants can be almost 70% efficient.
WetEV
#49
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SageBrush
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:34 am

WetEV wrote: NG is less than half of those numbers.
First, carbon content per BTU:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11
Then consider efficiency, coal plants are less than 40% efficient. NG combined cycle plants can be almost 70% efficient.
Methane is ~ CH4 while hydrocarbons are ~ CH2. The higher btu per gram and higher efficiency mostly stems from the same higher HC ratio so you should not double count.

Read the latest on methane escape at the drilling sites. It has been way under-estimated for years.

You are correct that I took the middle estimates. I don't want to scare the bozos into inaction.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
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11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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WetEV
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:50 pm

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote: Then consider efficiency, coal plants are less than 40% efficient. NG combined cycle plants can be almost 70% efficient.
Methane is ~ CH4 while hydrocarbons are ~ CH2. The higher btu per gram and higher efficiency mostly stems from the same higher HC ratio so you should not double count.
The higher btu per carbon is due to the HC ratio.

The higher efficiency is due to combined cycle plants. Start with a BTU. Coal is abrasive, so only a steam plant is usable. Natural gas isn't, so a turbine (much like a jet engine) can be used, which is more efficient at turning BTUs into KWh. Then the hot exhaust can be used to boil water, and even more KWh can be generated from the heat that would otherwise be wasted.

https://youtu.be/qG7SlVfAuPA1
SageBrush wrote:Read the latest on methane escape at the drilling sites. It has been way under-estimated for years.
A good point, NG would be close to 4X better than 2X better if this was not so.
WetEV
#49
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SageBrush
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:02 pm

WetEV wrote: Start with a BTU. Coal is abrasive, so only a steam plant is usable. Natural gas isn't, so a turbine (much like a jet engine) can be used, which is more efficient at turning BTUs into KWh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_ ... ower_plant

You can start from coal, but it is first turned into a 'syngas' at 70 - 80% efficiency
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ ... /estap.pdf

----
Accounting:
The higher specific energy of NG compared to coal is ~ offset by the mining methane emissions (maybe!)
Coal is converted to syngas at a ~ 25% cost
The CC power plant is then equal efficiency for either syngas or NG.

As I said, NG is not far behind in AGW costs.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
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11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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WetEV
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:41 pm

SageBrush wrote:As I said, NG is not far behind in AGW costs.
Thanks, I was unaware of IGCC plants. Most existing coal plants are not IGCC, so phasing out existing coal plants and replacing with combined cycle plants still reduces CO2 per kWh. And that's been mostly with NGCC plants.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Oilpan4
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:44 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Oilpan4 wrote:I understand the article and find most of it agreeable.
Oh ?
What do you disagree with and why ?

How can you possibly "agree" with the article while not having a clue about climate sensitivity ?
You can't even articulate a coherent argument for why we should care.
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SageBrush
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:52 pm

Oilpan4 wrote: You can't even articulate a coherent argument for why we should care.
The most coherent is the article referenced in the OP; or if you are feeling ambitious, the science article that is the source.

You sound like a spoiled 6 year old brat
"No one told me. Waaaaaaah"
"No one helped me. Waaaaaah"
"No one taught me. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah !!!!!!!!!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaahhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!."

Post your address and I'll send you a pacifier.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
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powersurge
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Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:28 am

That article is the biggest load of horse crap I have ever read.... Worse than the AOC "New Green Deal"...

Isn't it amazing how they cleverly turn a "world humanitarian crisis" into a precise, definitive Dollars and Cents "cost" of some future catastrophe?

Also, they are asking for (and getting) $150K in today dollars from so many suckers that buy into this ECO-RELIGIOUS CULT they are pushing?

Why should any American buy into this sacred religion when their neighbor is driving huge Raptor pickup trucks and Suburban SUVs? Darn, there is even a cult that WILL NOT HAVE CHILDREN to save carbon credits!!!!!

You want to slow down emissions, get everyone in the country to change their oil-glut behavior and stop asking for MUCHO DOLLARES from us, and allowing the government to control our lives just to give some guy in India better quality air..

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