SageBrush
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:42 pm

Nubo wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
A test with 3 people is a better argument, but how many people can come up with that on their own ?


The Greeks did, thousands of years ago.

One Greek did.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

powersurge
Posts: 1334
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:18 am

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

My basic opposition is the idea to use current money and resources for a long term cause when our country has so many more present day challenges.

WetEV
Posts: 2912
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:42 am

powersurge wrote:I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.


Opinions, yes. Actions are something different.

powersurge wrote:My basic opposition is the idea to use current money and resources for a long term cause when our country has so many more present day challenges.


That's why you don't save for retirement, eh?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

LeafTaxi
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:54 am
Delivery Date: 14 Jan 2019

Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:59 pm

You make a good point (that people don't believe that the funds will be used responsibly). I prefer the "carbon fee & dividend" scheme, where every dollar extra that gets collected at the pump gets refunded to citizens or state residents. I'm also biased because I know I'm cheap, but the world is full of spendthrifts, so I will personally come-out ahead :) .


johnlocke wrote: Taxes on gasoline were supposed to be used to fund road repairs. How did that work out?


It worked-out miserably, but not due to "politicians redirecting the money": rather, nobody could ever increase the gas tax (because politics), even as cars consumed less gas per mile, and the amount of money collected per gallon got smaller due to inflation, and the price of road repairs increased much faster than inflation. It got to the point where the gas tax is not even half of the money spent on roads & bridges by my state (MN).

In my state, gas tax generated $0.9 bn in 2018 but the Trunk + County + Municipal highways and bridges it funds used-up $2.95 bn.

In my state, you _could_ accurately complain that 3% of the gas tax money goes to non-road/bridge things like ATV trails and tax collection, but for every dollar of gas tax "siphoned off" to pay for these non-road uses, there are $58 which were collected other ways (e.g. sales tax), but got "siphoned IN" and lumped-together with the gas tax to pay for the roads and bridges.

Maybe other states fund more things with gas tax, but you'd need a crazy high gas tax to actually collect more money than is spent on roads & bridges. If MN ($0.286/gal) collected the same per gallon as CA ($0.5522/gal), MN would still come up short when it's time to pay for roads, if it wasn't also taking money from other places.

https://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/hwyfin.pdf

GRA
Posts: 10454
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:13 pm

Here's an article explaining why CA has the highest gas prices in the country and where a lot of it goes, partly because we've internalized some of the externalities, and also because our roads have been neglected far too long, and are in crappy shape: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/philmatier/article/Price-of-gas-to-jump-more-than-nickel-a-gallon-on-14016075.php?psid=bC1QN

Note that here, at least, the public has been willing to tax itself to improve transport infrastructure, because everyone has experienced the problems. IIRR the environmental components of the tax (cap and trade, LCFS, gas station cleanup) were done by the legislature, but generally with public support. Of course, our fuel taxes are still far less than is the case in Europe.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: (Some of) The Cost of Carbon Emissions

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:36 pm

powersurge wrote:My basic opposition is the idea to use current money and resources for a long term cause when our country has so many more present day challenges.

Ahh ... so your extra $10 a month not spent on clean energy is directed to what national challenge specifically ?

More importantly (to me anyway) is a basic flaw in your reasoning:
You are dumping your pollution and the costs of your pollution on other people and future generations. Why do you think you have that right ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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