Public discussion of Tony Williams ban from Mynissanleaf

I trust that the admin and Tony will figure it out

DuncanCunningham said:

I trust that the admin and Tony will figure it out

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As I'm gathering, it was some dispute over billing for the right to advertise... which is a real childish reason to do it, let alone continue to keep him banned after the two people clearly have one anothers' attention. For various other reasons (e.g. the multiple accounts required on each model of EV forums, the stale phpBB software, the intrusive and often irrelevant keyword link-ads, etc), some competition would be welcome to help shape the EV community going forward... it really takes just a couple of influential people to leave for a new platform and get some formidable competition going

That's why I find it hard to believe this could even be up for debate... as a forum owner, I'd think you would want to keep your most valuable people here and happy. They're the people providing free services here in the forum and bringing value to the forum platform itself. A forum is nothing but a blank database without its members...

Seriously, Mike? You would ban Tony **from every EV forum** after giving him only one day to reply to you? If that is the case, that's beyond capricious. If you have so little respect for the people who make these forums worthwhile, then I wouldn't be surprised if they find somewhere else to share their knowledge.

Every forum has a small handful of people who produce tremendous amounts of useful information and knowledge to share. Tony is one of them. If you drive him away, you reduce the value of these forums to us all. It is in your interest to do everything you can to encourage him to participate. Your doing the opposite tells me you don't care what the users want. That's not a good strategy.

Free speech, blah blah blah, private property, blah blah, rules, blah blah.

Let's get down to it: Tony said something, a mod got butthurt, Tony got banned. That's all that happened. That's all that ever happens when old timers of any forum get the ban hammer.

But I will say this- I would rather have a place of open ideas and an occasional asshole than have a 'safe space' forum with no intellectual fulfillment. As much as I would personally like to swing the ban hammer, I think his access should be restored. Not that I have any say in this drama whatsoever.

kubel said:

Free speech, blah blah blah, private property, blah blah, rules, blah blah.

Let's get down to it: Tony said something, a mod got butthurt, Tony got banned. That's all that happened. That's all that ever happens when old timers of any forum get the ban hammer.

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Good Lord! GRA isn't a mod now, is he?

Those of us who have been here since before the first delivery in late 2010 would probably never jumped into this without the knowledge of people like Tony, Engineer, Gary Gid et.al. The things we learned (us first year adopters) was invaluable. This will hopefully get resolved and Tony will continue to contribute to this forum.
If not, I will probably withdraw my forum support.

I don't know why Tony got banned, but I can see it both ways. Rules exist for a reason. If you break the rules you should suffer the consequences. But if Tony says he's sorry then why not forgive him and let him back?

It's like traffic laws. Do we really want everyone to drive however they please? If you break a traffic law you get a citation. If you keep breaking it you eventually loose your driving rights. It doesn't matter if people depend on you getting to where they need you. You could hurt someone doing so if you don't do it right.

wxxyz said:

Hi All, how did this get public?
I just banned him this morning and already there's a topic here about it? Cyberspace...

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You banned Tony;
Tony told the world;
The World chimes in.

You must be new to the internet

Very few people who post here pay for the forum upkeep, let alone some profit to the forum owners.

So it devolves to a dependence on advertising and "sponsorships" from businesses. It is then a very small leap to realize that the forum will not tolerate an atmosphere hostile to sponsorships since they want to keep the ones they have and recruit more.

And if one sponsor trolls another -- well, sh1t is gonna fly, and considerations of how useful/informative a sponsor is to the non-paying public are barely on the radar. People who are unhappy being in the peanut gallery are welcome to pay for a seat at the table where the forum owner hangs.

Hmm, with no Tony here, I'll have to find other ways to support him. He seemed smart enough to realize hydrogen is doomed. Physics and all, don't ya know. I say let him back on the forum.

All,

First, I would like to thank all the folks who expressed their support for me. I can't tell you how much it meant to have the door slammed in my face and have you folks right behind me. I'm reminded of a famous quote, "I stand on the shoulders of giants", and those giants are each of you.

Mike, the owner of this forum (forum name - wxxyz), has removed my "permanent ban" a few minutes ago. While he posted earlier in this thread alluding to folks following the terms of agreement (and the inference that my ban was a product of not following the rules), ultimately his specific stated reason was otherwise. I did not break any forum rules, nor did he state that I did.

I had been, until yesterday, a paid vendor on this and other sites owned by Mike, and also a moderator on a site for the past several years. We had planned, until yesterday, to not only continue that path, but to expand our advertising through Mike in exchange for links to our company's products.

That all stopped quite unexpectedly at 9:28am yesterday. I quite frankly was dumbfounded, but I want to stress that I was not completely surprised. That's because Mike had personally "permanently banned" me 3 years ago (which also lasted less than 24 hours) in equally odd circumstances. I guess you could say that I've become accustomed to his adverse behavior.

In the future, I have informed Mike that I will no longer pay him for advertising on this and his other sites that he is a principal in. Obviously, I won't be advertising our company's many products, either. It's a bit sad, because I'm sure Mike could use the money, and our company spends THOUSANDS of dollars per month in advertising. But, I just can't in good conscience reward his actions with our hard earned money, even if it might be a detriment to our business. We will continue to support those advertisers that deal with myself and our company in a professional way.

In addition, I find it a bit silly to support the forum in more substantial ways... my freely shared knowledge and moderating, in addition to linking and sharing his web addresses on other sites as I have done for the past 6 years. Mike profits, in part, from all of our shared knowledge and exchanges here, and I'm not of the mindset to continue to help build his business at the expense of my most valuable resource, my time.

That doesn't mean I won't post. We all have friends here, and common interests to share. I'm sure it's no surprise that I feel a bit burned, and I need time to reflect on what is best for me personally, and our EV related business going forward without Mike and his forums.

Thanks all, again, for you support. I suspect I wouldn't be posting here without it.

Tailwinds always,

Tony

I read about it this morning elsewhere... Too bad is my only comment as he is a wealth of knowledge, insight, and help... It seems like something of an over-reaction to me on Mike's part... I'm glad it has since been repealed, but I can appreciate Tony's reluctance to be a sponsor or advertiser in the future under the circumstances...

wxxyz said:

Hi All, how did this get public?
I just banned him this morning and already there's a topic here about it? Cyberspace...

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Yes an over-reaction would be a good term. I hadn't heard anything from Tony in response to my emails sent in Jan and Feb, so I should have simply removed his vendor access as his account was expired.

Tony and many of you contribute in huge ways to this forum's success, and I profit from it a little bit, and for that I am grateful. This is a fun part time job on the side of my web development.

Look, I'm not against Tony in the least but I was apparently one of the few who saw the offending post and I must say it wasn't pretty. It attacked with vigor another vendor(who also supports this site AFAIK) and I wish I hadn't seen it. I didn't report it, figuring a mod would see it and probably delete the post, but I thought about it. Now it's true wxyz may have jumped the gun, maybe a warning and deleting the objectionable post would have been more in line but I just want to point out he wasn't totally unprovoked. Just like maybe Tony could have been having a bad moment, so could have wxyz.
Personally I'm going to consider it just that, 2 people having a bad moment in time, lets get on to driving and talking about our Leafs(or other EVs)

I suggest that we just consider it a misunderstanding, since resolved, and move on...

wxxyz said:

Yes an over-reaction would be a good term. I hadn't heard anything from Tony in response to my emails sent in Jan and Feb, so I should have simply removed his vendor access as his account was expired.

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Am I understanding correctly that you banned* him because his vendor dues were not paid ? No other reasons ?

*I understand that the ban is now lifted.

jjeff said:

Look, I'm not against Tony in the least but I was apparently one of the few who saw the offending post and I must say it wasn't pretty. It attacked with vigor another vendor(who also supports this site AFAIK) and I wish I hadn't seen it.

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From my perspective, the person advertising his product that competes directly with mine was NOT a forum vendor (and at the time of my post, his status was "Forum Supporter"). We are taking about 36 hours from ago.

My post was a response to his advertisement while my company is paying the vendor fees. This person has been adversing his products for YEARS on this forum. So, my post was specifically intended to not be flattering of his product, or his pricing (which I promised to beat, no matter what price he posted), or his unorthodox business practices.

There was no offensive language, personal attacks, etc. This was not my first exchange with that (now) vendor. I will state that this same person is one of our thousands of customers. It's not personal... it's business.

Mike did remove my post, probably after the now vendor likely complained. Frankly, the way that was handled is yet another thorn in my saddle.

I had previously reported the guy's posts that advertised products and never got the courtesy of a returned email.

I hope this gives some perspective.

TonyWilliams said:

jjeff said:

My post was a response to his advertisement while my company is paying the vendor fees. This person has been adversing his products for YEARS on this forum. So, my post was specifically intended to not be flattering of his product
I hope this gives some perspective.

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I can sort of understand you taking him to task for not paying vendor fees, but how does that impute his products ?

SageBrush said:

TonyWilliams said:

jjeff said:

My post was a response to his advertisement while my company is paying the vendor fees. This person has been adversing his products for YEARS on this forum. So, my post was specifically intended to not be flattering of his product
I hope this gives some perspective.

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I can sort of understand you taking him to task for not paying vendor fees, but how does that impute his products ?

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I didn't make any reference to the actual product except contrasts. We use a more secure plug and offer a longer cable, etc. My biggest contrast was the price ($59 each for adapters we sell for far less, and that I offered to give away).

FalconFour said:

Seriously? There are some folks in the EV community that are indisputably immune from bans due to their contributions and activity in the EV scene - those whom have done such great work that's helped build the industry we have today. In my view, Tony is one of those people.

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That's a scary thought..
There are some people that have done so much good that rules don't apply to them?????

Regardless of the specific situation (which I hope works itself out), rules are for everyone. You don't get a pass just because you are helpful..

desiv