Solo hybrid drivers in Ca. HOV lanes amplify congestion

I've been ambivalent at best about handing out SO HOV lane stickers for just the reasons cited in this study (via GCC):

Study finds solo hybrid drivers in California HOV lanes amplify congestion, create up to $4,500 per car in adverse social costs annually

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/09/20140930-hov.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is one of the reasons why I believe that only vehicles with no ICE of any kind should receive stickers...

GRA said:

I've been ambivalent at best about handing out SO HOV lane stickers for just the reasons cited in this study (via GCC):

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Odd to find BEV bigots in this forum.

We can start with DENYING stickers to hydrogen cars. Oh wait ... that'll only be an extra 20 or 25 stickers.

.

srl99 said:

Odd to find BEV bigots in this forum.

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If the HOV lanes are no longer meeting their purpose of lowering congestion, the number of single driver vehicles allowed needs to be reduced.
Seems pretty simple.

You have hybrids, plugin hybrids, and BEVs allowed. To me eliminating the exception for hybrids first makes the most sense.

hill said:

We can start with DENYING stickers to hydrogen cars.

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Hydrogen cars get EIGHT stickers EACH!

As I see it - Original intent of HOV lanes was to reduce the number of cars on the road (put more people in each car, fewer cars) and as incentive for those doing this, they got a 'fast lane' through the worst areas. Rather seems to make sense to me - let folks helping to reduce congestion benefit right away from their efforts and perhaps that will get more to do it and reduce congestion (original objective eh?).

Then someone comes along and says "We want to reduce emissions" and looks around noticing HOV lanes really aren't all that full and figures "gee, congestion lease to greater emissions, so they are somewhat related so let's give the same benefit to those who reduce emissions" and thus the hybrid gets a sticker to benefit from HOV lanes.

Now, time passes - technology changes, etc. Suddenly someone looks up and says "wow, those HOV lanes sure are getting full!" (Perhaps they should have renamed "High Occupancy Vehicle" to "Low Emissions Vehicle" but LEV doesn't have the same ring?). What to do? Now we debate on how low the emissions have to be in order to qualify (HEV or BEV?). All depends on the objective. The immediate value of the HOV is to speed those "doing what we ask - either being HOV or low emissions" past the busy parts of the traffic. Allowing single passenger vehicles in HOV lanes does nothing to reduce congestion (maybe emissions, but not congestion).

IF the objective is to reduce emissions then either A) raise the bar (lower acceptable emissions) for the vehicles to use the HOV. or B) Build more lanes.
IF the objective is to reduce congestion then either A) return to the "HOV" requirements of having more than one person in the car. or B) Build more lanes.

IF the lanes are over-congested with HOV vehicles then all you have left to do is build more lanes... perhaps reverse the paradigm and have more HOV lanes than regular and thus make the "single person" vehicles have ever increasing congestion to push them over to carpooling etc.

Why is this difficult to figure out?

Slow1 said:

Why is this difficult to figure out?

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It isn't.

Just hard for society to accept that the purpose of HOV lane was to get more people down the same highway, that it had very little to do with emissions reduction, and that letting solo drivers use HOV lane was a bad idea that should be totally eliminated.

Once solo drivers got used to being able to buy their way into the lane through lower emissions they don't want to give it up.
So they complain to the politicians.

Then it becomes impossible to figure anything out :shock:

Zythryn said:

You have hybrids, plugin hybrids, and BEVs allowed. To me eliminating the exception for hybrids first makes the most sense.

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Hybrids are already out. Their yellow decals expired in July of 2011.

Zythryn said:

srl99 said:

Odd to find BEV bigots in this forum.

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If the HOV lanes are no longer meeting their purpose of lowering congestion, the number of single driver vehicles allowed needs to be reduced.
Seems pretty simple.

You have hybrids, plugin hybrids, and BEVs allowed. To me eliminating the exception for hybrids first...

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MADE sense.

yes yes yes
proud BEV bigot

TomT said:

GRA said:

I've been ambivalent at best about handing out SO HOV lane stickers for just the reasons cited in this study (via GCC):

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That is one of the reasons why I believe that only vehicles with no ICE of any kind should receive stickers...

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It's the reason why I've been against giving them to any vehicles with only an SO but understood the need to provide a perk to get a fair number of PEVs on the road, and was against extending the period from 1/1/15 to 1/1/19 or granting any more green or white stickers. I could have seen 1/1/17, but an extra four years added to the first four was just too much.

OTOH, contrarian greens like David Owen hold that congestion is actually good, because the more awful you make car commutes the more likely that people will choose to live where they can walk/bike/use transit for their commute instead of using a car, shrinking VMT and reducing the societal costs that come with cars, while simultaneously increasing support for those other modes.

So, even though I don't have to commute in a car myself, I've always been conflicted about the stickers. There's no question at all that for SO PEVs to provide the biggest pollution/energy/GHG benefit they should be in stop and go traffic rather than cruising in an HOV lane. But they also needed to be encouraged early on to reach something approaching critical mass. I think they're just about there and will be when the 2nd gen. arrives, at which point I think they should be able to stand on their own without the HOV perk, which is worth far more to the average PEV owner (given their above average incomes) than the $1,500 or $2,500 Ca. rebate, and probably more than the fed. tax credit too.

I do think that Californians should be given a choice starting ASAP: either the HOV perk OR the rebate, but not both. I have no doubt that any SO commuter who uses an HOV lane will opt for the perk.

SO PEV

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Ah, figured it out: SO = Single Occupant. ITAWKA? *

srl99 said:

Odd to find BEV bigots in this forum.

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thankyouOB said:

proud BEV bigot

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LOLx2

Alas, I hate to admit that I'm tending in that direction as well. Even though some of my best friends own a Prius (or two!), I find myself looking with scorn and derision at them "in the wild" . I find myself disliking Toyota as well, for their foot-(and knuckle-)dragging when it comes to pure BEVs. Hopefully I can limit my negative feelings to just the inanimate objects (vehicles and corporations), and not let it extend to their "drivers".


* Is that a well-known acronym ;-)

mbender said:

SO PEV

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Ah, figured it out: SO = Single Occupant. ITAWKA? *

* Is that a well-known acronym ;-)

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Reasonably, among this crowd anyway. More typically used with 'HOV' as in 'SO HOV sticker'.

Slow1 said:

Why is this difficult to figure out?

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Actually, at one point it WAS figured out. As pointed out already, the regular hybrid stickers had a sunset clause which has already passed, and people in their regular Prii and other non-plug-in hybrids can no longer use the carpool lane solo.

There were also quotas on the number of stickers granted for the now-expired yellow stickers and the green stickers as well. But the automakers have a strong lobby in Sacramento, who were convinced to increase the number of green stickers being allocated.

Here are the new lane designations:

1 Tesla
2 Plug-in vehicles
3 regular passenger vehicles
4 Larger SUVs and pickups
5 Commercial vehicles

If fewer lanes then all gets gets jammed to the right unless you qualify.

For the purpose of passing a vehicle can move to the left for up to 1/2 mile traffic permitting.

Carpool? No one actually carpools except by random chance they prefer to ride together.

Study finds solo hybrid drivers in California HOV lanes amplify congestion, create up to $4,500 per car in adverse social costs annually

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"Study's" seem able to find all sorts of things to support the cause (for whatever cause they have).

I suggest an alternate view: Moving cars to the carpool lane reduces the stress on the overloaded remaining lanes, allowing the majority of the cars to move slightly faster, which allows them to get to their destination and stop polluting for the trip. Of course, the "studys" never seem to consider the effect of a large percentage of cars being trapped in substantially worse traffic.

From my own observations, if one wants to reduce the number of vehicles in the carpool lanes, start ticketing folks driving single-occupant in non-allowed vehicles using those lanes. At one point in the last year, I was paying more attention to carpool lane use, and noticed that 1/4 to 1/3 of the vehicles in the carpool lane had only one person on board, and did not appear to be qualified in any way for single-occupant use of the lane.

GRA said:

'SO HOV sticker'.

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That is the dumbest thing ever. How can it be high occupancy and single occupant unless it is a motorcycle or a single seat car. I agree with others that nobody should get access by way of a "green" car, but should only be granted access for carpooling. If you find that there are not enough folks carpooling then remove the lane designation all together instead of granting some special group access to try and fill the lane.

I don't think BEVs, or even Volt-like "EVs" are the problem. I think the real problem is solo ICE drivers violating HOV rules.

alanlarson said:

At one point in the last year, I was paying more attention to carpool lane use, and noticed that 1/4 to 1/3 of the vehicles in the carpool lane had only one person on board, and did not appear to be qualified in any way for single-occupant use of the lane.

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Yep. CHP needs to crack down on that harder.

I also don't like the headlines of the articles. They're misleading, esp. who don't know what's going on w/the program or who don't understand the distinction between HEVs (hybrid electric vehicles) vs. PHEVs.

NO non-plugin hybrids qualify for ANY CA HOV access anymore. The yellow non-plugin hybrid HOV stickers expired 7/1/2011 (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. They couldn't be the cause of clogging HOV lanes after expiration. I have those now useless stickers on my Prius. They weren't useless when I bought my Prius in January 06.

Yes, PHEVs that meet enhAT-PZEV standards (e.g. 2012+ Volts w/the right equipment, Fusion/C-Max Energi, etc.), BEVs, FCEVs, NGVs, etc. do qualify for white or green HOV stickers.

mwalsh said:

Zythryn said:

You have hybrids, plugin hybrids, and BEVs allowed. To me eliminating the exception for hybrids first makes the most sense.

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Hybrids are already out. Their yellow decals expired in July of 2011.

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Correct. As I responded earlier, the headlines of the articles are misleading (and annoying to me).

Mr. Roadshow even had a yellow HOV sticker peeling party (I was living outside CA at the time) for that weekend: http://abclocal.go.com/story?section=resources/traffic&id=8213875" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.