powersurge
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:22 am

Anybody who thinks we puny humans could change global warming still believes in unicorns and fairies....

Also, anybody who thinks driving a Leaf stops global warming is also in that club.

I will not get into the details....

GetOffYourGas
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:46 am

We puny humans have been dumping into our lands, seas, and skies consistently since the dawn of the industrial age. All of that adds up to a whole lot of accumulated dumping. The belief that this is not having any effect on our climate is nearly untenable.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
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wwhitney
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:49 pm

powersurge wrote:Anybody who thinks we puny humans could change global warming still believes in unicorns and fairies....

There is a long history of life forms modifying the environment and atmosphere, starting with the release of free oxygen by photosynthetic organisms about 3 billion years ago. Prior to the "Great Oxygenation Event" about 2.5 billion years ago, there was no free oxygen in the atmosphere.

Cheers, Wayne

powersurge
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:12 am

Well, first of all, it is easy to say the humans have been polluting since the dawn of time... However, the earth is a giant fish tank that is a closed system. Throughout evolution, whatever crap is released by living or dead plants, animals, volcanoes, fires, or humans is absorbed by the earth, and reused to make other natural compounds. The earth cleans itself, so if we are always yelling about carbon dioxide, the earth is able to handle that. In the past humans burned so much wood, leaves, coal, and other crap, and the world was "clean"..

Also, the real issue is... Is there DATA to prove that humans can affect world climate to either improve, or at the very least slow down the presence of CO2? Try to convince the third world countries to change their behavior, with them being the vast majority of humans in the world.. We idealistic Americans and Europeans have more to worry about than being GREEN. We should be more worried about turning RED... And you should know what I mean..

GetOffYourGas
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:57 pm

Sure, we've been polluting since humankind's discovery of fire. But the world population didn't hit 1B until about the time of the industrial revolution (19th century). We are now over 8B. And we're burning a whole lot more per capita to boot.

And no, I don't know what you mean about turning RED. The first thing that comes to mind is a political statement, but even then it's not clear if you are referring to neo-conservatives or communists let alone whether you are implying we should or should not turn red. So color me ignorant; I have no idea what you mean by that last sentence.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

LeftieBiker
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:03 pm

I'm picturing apoplexy.
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WetEV
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:48 pm

Maybe getting really drunk, as Lincoln's second Vice President did right before his inauguration.

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/hi ... ohnson.htm
WetEV
#49
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GRA
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:32 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:Sure, we've been polluting since humankind's discovery of fire. But the world population didn't hit 1B until about the time of the industrial revolution (19th century). We are now over 8B. And we're burning a whole lot more per capita to boot. <snip>

A small correction: as of July 1st, the world pop. is estimated to be 7.633B: https://www.google.com/search?q=world+populaiton+2018&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS817US817&oq=world+populaiton+2018&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5578j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Anyone interested in the details of total and per capita energy use over time both globally and in specific countries should read:
Energy Transitions: Global and National Perspectives, 2nd Edition
by Vaclav Smil: https://www.amazon.com/Energy-Transitions-Global-National-Perspectives/dp/144085324X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_2/000-0000000-8675309?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SSWGDMARP0GGVJ4WJG34

Pre-industrial age per capita energy usage (primarily biomass, with some water and a tiny bit of wind) was very low. I don't have the book handy, but the advent of fossil fuels, steam engines and then steam turbines, ICEs, electricity, meatier diets etc. has increased per-capita energy use massively, especially among the wealthiest countries. Some current numbers I remember (in GigaJoules - to convert to kWh divide by (3.6 x 10^6)): EU (as a whole) annual p.c. use 130 GJ; France 155 GJ; Germany 160 GJ; Japan 150 GJ; China (now, owing to their massive industrialization since 1980) 90 GJ; India (just beginning industrialization), 20 GJ. By comparison the incredibly wasteful U.S. has per cap. energy use of 300 GJ. Some of the U.S. difference compared to Germany and France (the two EU states with the most heavy industry) is due to larger size and lower population density (boosts transportation energy) and some due to climate (lots of HVAC use), but much if it is due to housing types (large detached homes in suburban sprawl versus smaller urban townhomes/apts.), and sheer profligacy due to low energy prices (e.g. unneeded SUVs, lack of insulation). U.S. per capita energy use in 2015 was actually 10% lower than it was in 1970 or 1980, and it's far easier for us to improve our efficiency and reduce our energy usage by a large percentage than it is for countries which are already much more efficient.

It wasn't until sometime in the 1890s that coal overtook biomass as the majority energy source, and not until 1964 that oil overtook coal (but will never reach 50%, as NG and other energy sources have increased). Even so, although the % of the world's energy that comes from biomass has dropped, the total amount has increased owing to the increase in population, and large numbers of people in poor countries still depend on it for cooking and heating. In India, 300M people still don't have access to electricity. Here's what Smil has to say:

My best estimate of wood consumption (including wood for charcoal) for the year 2000 is about 2.5Gt of air-dry matter (2 Gt of absolutely dry matter, or 35 EJ) and crop residues (about 20% of their total mass) added about 10 EJ for the grand total of 45 EJ or an equivalent of 3 Gt of air-dry wood. For comparison, Yevich and Logan (2003) estimated that 2.06 Gt (about 31 EJ) of traditional biofuels were consumed in in 1985 in low-income countries; Turkenburg et al. (2000) put the end-of-the-century total 45 +- 10 EJ; and Fernandes et al.
(2007) estimated 2.457 Gt of solid biofuels (roughly 37 EJ) in the year 2000, with wood contributing 75% and crop residues 20%, and with households burning 80% of the total and productive activities the rest. Despite major uncertainties all of these numbers cluster around 40 EJ (35-45 EJ, 2.3-3.0 Gt of all solid biofuels) and imply the doubling of wood and crop residue harvests for fuel during the 20th century accompanied by a steady decline of average per capita consumption rates everywhere except in some parts of the sub-Saharan Africa.

Emphasis added.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:14 pm

I was able to check my memory with the Smil book for the per capita energy consumption by country, and I boobed big-time. I got the numbers mostly correct, but the exponent too high by a factor of 1B! ExaJoules (EJ, 10^18) should have been GigaJoules (GJ, 10^9). Exajoules are national and global totals. What's an error of 9 orders of magnitude between friends :oops: I've corrected EJ in my previous post to GJ, and also changed Japan's 130 GJ per cap. to the correct figure of 150GJ, fixed some typos and added a quote and some additional comments.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: GCC: Report finds says “negative emissions technologies” need to play a large role in mitigating climate change

Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:03 pm

GCC has updated their article from the first post, as follows:
Update: The scientists behind this study have updated their report in the journal Nature acknowledging key errors in the study. The note that the data regarding scientific uncertainty was mishandled, which inflated the amount of heat the oceans have absorbed. The central finding that the oceans have absorbed more heat than previously reported remains in line with other studies. In a statement to the Washington Post, a Nature spokesman said: “Maintaining the accuracy of the scientific record is of primary importance to us as publishers and we recognize our responsibility to correct errors in papers that we have published."

Bolding mine.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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