Second car - Prius? Civic? Mazda3? Other?

Our Leaf is great. But we need a second car that can handle long trips. Fuel economy and utility are important. We often haul around two dogs in soft crates plus other stuff. Two soft crates just barely fit in the back seat of the Leaf. Comfort would be nice, too.

We're looking at the Prius, Civic, Civic Hybrid, Fit, and Mazda3.

Do you recommend something else? Why?
What do you recommend? Why?
Do you recommend against one of these? Why?
Do you have one of these vehicles and have any experiences or opinions to share?

Thank you for all of your thoughts and suggestions.

Bob

In your situation I'd consider the Ford C-Max Energi - a plug-in hybrid that is similar in size to the Prius V (the large Prius). You're already used to electric charging and if you have an L2 EVSE (charger) at home you can share that with the LEAF.

My wife and I almost bought a used minivan as our second car. My thinking was, might as well make it as different from the Leaf as possible and make sure it will work in _every_ situation that the Leaf won't: move furniture, carry 7 people, etc. I actually really like the Mazda MPV that they stopped making in 2004. A bit smaller than the minivans they are making now, but still seats 7 quite well. Or the Mazda 5, for the same reasons, with seating for 6.

In the end, though, screw that. It's cheaper to rent than pay hundreds in depreciation and maintenance every month.

I'm pretty happy with the Sentra, primarily from a dollars and cents standpoint. With the $1000 Leaf bonus and other incentives it was a little over $14k, with taxes, dealers fees, tag, etc it was exactly $16k out the door for the SV model with three years to pay for it at 0%. While not the class leading choice like, say, the Mazda3, it gets the job done just fine for thousands less. IMO the interior finish is quite good for that category, as is ride comfort, roominess (particularly the back seat) and quietness, plus it gets good mileage. It should be easy to unload or hand down to family members when more viable EV options hit the market.

We considered the Mazda5, but it seems they haven't updated the technology to their new skyactiv mumbo jumbo (as they are apparently discontinuing it) so mileage isn't great. Probably would have gone for an Odyssey before jumping into one of those, although that would be yet another price jump.

Bob said:

Our Leaf is great. But we need a second car that can handle long trips. Fuel economy and utility are important. We often haul around two dogs in soft crates plus other stuff. Two soft crates just barely fit in the back seat of the Leaf. Comfort would be nice, too.

We're looking at the Prius, Civic, Civic Hybrid, Fit, and Mazda3.

Do you recommend something else? Why?
What do you recommend? Why?
Do you recommend against one of these? Why?
Do you have one of these vehicles and have any experiences or opinions to share?

Thank you for all of your thoughts and suggestions.

Bob

Click to expand...

Prius: 100%

Civic Hybrid: NO. I've had many civics including a civic hybrid. Honda's IMA implementation is utter crap. Steer clear, it is not respective of an actual hybrid.

Civic: A normal gasser civic is a fun car to drive if you get the Si version and really easy to mod if you are in to that. If your long trips are leisure trips where you just go out and drive, the civic is a blast.

Mazda3: Another fun to drive car. Not a great car, but fun. If you are concerned the cages don't fit a leaf, I would hardly expect them to fit in a mazda3. But it does go zoom-zoom.

Honda Fit: I would only purchase this if you are just looking for the absolute cheapest car that will be reliable. It is a crappy little cheap car and if you go in with your expectations as such, you won't be disappointed.

In all of our vehicles, we use the Leaf+Prius combo the most. Prius can fit bath-tubs in the back, and is super roomy. We just did a trip with the 2 of us and 2 out of town guests in the Prius. 4 full sized adults, 4 things of luggage, food, and then the kicker, 2 pairs of skis, boots, ski clothes, ski poles, and accessories like a helmet and such. Everyone fit, everyone was comfortable. Driving through the mountains we always had power and we still averaged about 45mpg. Another car that can do that, doesn't exist.

^ I looked at the Fit and the versa note. The Sentra could actually be had for less, and IMO is a nicer car.

You'll never make back the premium you'll pay for the Prius in fuel savings, so plan on justifying that on some other basis, but given that 99% of consumer car choices are based on things other than going down the road as inexpensively as possible that shouldn't be too hard.

Bob said:

Our Leaf is great. But we need a second car that can handle long trips. Fuel economy and utility are important. We often haul around two dogs in soft crates plus other stuff. Two soft crates just barely fit in the back seat of the Leaf. Comfort would be nice, too.

We're looking at the Prius, Civic, Civic Hybrid, Fit, and Mazda3.

Do you recommend something else? Why?
What do you recommend? Why?
Do you recommend against one of these? Why?
Do you have one of these vehicles and have any experiences or opinions to share?

Thank you for all of your thoughts and suggestions.

Bob

Click to expand...

As at least one other post mentioned; see how often you'll need the other car as renting occasionally might be much less in the long run; if you buy a used car perhaps less out of pocket but trade-off might be reliability especially if the 2nd 'trip' car doesn't get driven much. We traded in an '06 Mazda3 GT (the hatchback) and size-wise it was quite similar to the LEAF so doubt it would offer much more room for your dog carriers; the new one has more style, not sure if they added much more cargo space.

We have 3 drivers and 4 cars; so the 4th one is our trip, utility and worse of winter car; IL winters are comparable to NH ones so that could be a factor as well (the 4th car is a VW Touareg; tons of space, great in the snow and fantastic long distance cruiser on trips).

We had the budget and space to store all 4 in a semi-heated garage so that's a concern as well as keeping something used occasionally under roof is always better than leaving it outside in the elements.

Among the others you mentioned -- the Prius V model would have the largest cargo space; I don't care for them but each has their own taste (hate the faux leather interiors, mix-bagged controls and 'drone' sound when driving --- tons of space though!); they can get pricey pretty fast but you didn't mention a target price.

LTLFTcomposite said:

^ I looked at the Fit and the versa note. The Sentra could actually be had for less, and IMO is a nicer car.

You'll never make back the premium you'll pay for the Prius in fuel savings, so plan on justifying that on some other basis, but given that 99% of consumer car choices are based on things other than going down the road as inexpensively as possible that shouldn't be too hard.

Click to expand...

I see this stupid argument about the premium all the time from people, but it is just wrong on so many levels. I wouldn't have expected it from people on a BEV forum.

What "premium" is there for the Prius? What is the directly comparable hatchback to where this magical baseline number is measured? It doesn't exist. Additionally the Prius is quiet, smooth, roomy, well built, no starter to wear out, no transmission to wear out, it will start in all temperatures where normal cars' frozen batteries wont turn them over, brakes that are still original at 200K or 300K miles, the list just keeps going on. Add to that fuel economy of 45mpg minimally on the highway (that's what I get cruising at 80mph to 100mph in the Prius loaded with 2 adults and full kit with sticky winter tires) and closer to 65mpg in town while driving it like I stole it. No other car will get you that. Add the utility of the hatch and it is unbeatable. Thousands of pounds of stone, cement, and dirt have been hauled in the Prius. Items like a 55in TV sit flat in the back (not so in the Leaf!), full size bathtubs in full protective packaging slide right in, 10ft and 12ft lumber to build a few hundred square foot deck all fit in the Prius in one trip with the hatch closed, it is a work horse.

Every "premium" argument I hear compares the Prius with a Corolla or something like that which has nothing in common other than being another vehicle with 4 wheels.

I bought my Prius used for about $9K. After 7 years and 80K miles later, I got a CarFax offer to buy it back for $8800 without even negotiating. I was just curious and we were there anyways to buy another Prius (although we didn't). So my depreciation has been minimal. We have bought another brand new Prius C in 2013 and it is working great. It was also only $2K more than a similar smaller hatchback but with all the features inside (excluding all the "hybrid" parts) it was worth it alone.

Another factor that needs to be considered is that the Prius is cheaper to maintain and insure. For example, because my Prius is on the policy ALL vehicles get an off the top 20% hybrid vehicle discount. They don't offer an electric vehicle discount so the Leaf is useless there. Insuring 8+ cars is not cheap, but getting 20% off of that just because the Prius exists actually makes the full coverage insurance on the fully paid off Prius free and pays me some money every month even if it were to just sit there and never be driven.

My statement was based on comparing new price to new price, that you'll never make back the $5-7k premium on fuel savings. Of course there might be things about the Prius you find useful and offer advantages over a Corolla that would justify the higher price. The same could be said about lots of cars. Good for you to get a great deal on a used Prius, but who's to say you might not have gotten an even better deal on a used Corolla?

Any hybrid insurance discount must be green benevolence thing; you can't tell me it's because their repair costs are lower.

LTLFTcomposite said:

My statement was based on comparing new price to new price, that you'll never make back the $5-7k premium on fuel savings. Of course there might be things about the Prius you find useful and offer advantages over a Corolla that would justify the higher price. The same could be said about lots of cars. Good for you to get a great deal on a used Prius, but who's to say you might not have gotten an even better deal on a used Corolla?

Any hybrid insurance discount must be green benevolence thing; you can't tell me it's because their repair costs are lower.

Click to expand...

Again, WHAT $5K TO $7K PREMIUM? This number is pulled out of the air, there is no direct comparison.

I already mentioned the "premium" on my premium Prius C versus another loaded hatch was $2K. Ignoring the fact that the C was a hybrid, the quality of the interior and infotainment system was clearly worth the price difference. Add in that it saves some petrol, and it is a clear winner.

Also, what maintenance costs? I change oil half as frequently, never change the brakes, and never do anything to it. Original everything at 135K miles without a single repair. Many go to 200K without a single repair. Many go way beyond that before things start breaking, and that is understandable. A $1500 battery replacement after 10-15 years of service doesn't seem bad at all.

All of these things are corroborated by actual Prius owners. I have been dealing with people that spread crap for lots of years on this subject, and didn't expect to find it on a BEV site. A diesel truck rolling coal site, sure.

Calm down.

To begin with, a Prius C is a long ways from a regular Prius. Glad you like yours, but hertz gave me one and I quickly exchanged it, too small. I do agree though that the regular Prius is a nice car.

Truecar prices (cheapest Prius models):

Prius 2: 21,453
Prius C: 18,901
Sentra SV: 15,490

So the Sentra is $3500-6000 less than the most basic Prius models, and that extra incentive I got from the Leaf made it even cheaper (extra $1000 loyalty cash + $400 lease termination waiver). So yes, it would have been $5-7k more for me to get into a Prius, and I don't share your confidence that I'd make that back on fuel or avoiding a couple brake jobs or oil changes.

Different strokes for different folks. I never said the Sentra was wonderful, I said it was cheap. Not recommending it as a preferred choice for anyone willing and able to spend for something nicer, but for those looking to go on the cheap it's not bad.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Calm down.

To begin with, a Prius C is a long ways from a regular Prius. Glad you like yours, but hertz gave me one and I quickly exchanged it, too small. I do agree though that the regular Prius is a nice car.

Truecar prices (cheapest Prius models):

Prius 2: 21,453
Prius C: 18,901
Sentra SV: 15,490

So the Sentra is $3500-6000 less than the most basic Prius models, and that extra incentive I got from the Leaf made it even cheaper (extra $1000 loyalty cash + $400 lease termination waiver). So yes, it would have been $5-7k more for me to get into a Prius, and I don't share your confidence that I'd make that back on fuel or avoiding a couple brake jobs or oil changes.

Different strokes for different folks. I never said the Sentra was wonderful, I said it was cheap. Not recommending it as a preferred choice for anyone willing and able to spend for something nicer, but for those looking to go on the cheap it's not bad.

Click to expand...

We have a Prius and a Prius C.

Sentra SV is not a comparable car. Similarly my RX450h was more than a comparable Chrysler Town and Country... Oh wait, not the same...

Differentiation is always subjective and dependent on one's priorities. I could easily argue that the T&C has capabilities and versatility that far surpass the RX450h, and that you got screwed on that deal, but that's not for me to say, I don't know what's important to you and it's none of my business. Besides when the tranny falls out of the T&C at 60k miles anything said about versatility would sound quite hollow :lol:

Two things I'm quite certain of though, the Prius and Sentra both go down the road and $7000 is, well, $7000.

So you're ok with paying that big cost premium over an old, used, rusty Civic? ;-)

LTLFTcomposite said:

Differentiation is always subjective and dependent on one's priorities. I could easily argue that the T&C has capabilities and versatility that far surpass the RX450h, and that you got screwed on that deal, but that's not for me to say, I don't know what's important to you and it's none of my business. Besides when the tranny falls out of the T&C at 60k miles anything said about versatility would sound quite hollow :lol:

Two things I'm quite certain of though, the Prius and Sentra both go down the road and $7000 is, well, $7000.

Click to expand...

Way overpaying for both. The Nissan Versa is what, like $13K? Why not buy that? It's the same thing. The Chevy Spark is also $13K and a hatchback. Directly comparable to the Leaf and Prius I suppose... And even then, you can buy a car from the classifieds for $300. Anything more than that is a giant rip-off.

Capabilities and versatility are different in each vehicle, yes. You can definitely compare them, weight them apples to oranges on which fits better. However you cannot just take the price of one apple and the price of another orange, take the delta between them, and draw conclusions. Way too many factors. This oversimplification is just plain wrong. And that's the only way to get a "premium" figure for a Prius since there is no non-hybrid Prius on option. If Toyota made a Prius with the corolla engine in it and sold it for $7K less, then you could say the hybrid premium was $7K. That doesn't happen, it doesn't exist, that claim cannot be made. And even then, all the little differences between a pure ICE car, a HEV, a PHEV, and a BEV are also not directly comparable. The price put on not having to go the gas station in the Leaf, is pretty high for me. The quiet whizzing around is also high on my list. If they sold the Leaf with a gas engine, I would gladly pay $10K more for the electric version. It would be a premium, but I don't expect it to pay me back.

Similarly I don't expect 200 extra horespower in certain cars to "pay me back" versus something else. I don't expect my improved sound system in all the cars to pay me back.

Cars are in general not good investments (with the exception being extremely rare exotic sports cars) and to try and make arguments about pay-back periods is just insane. Cars are a depreciating item that you buy high and sell low. Maximize the pleasure for your extremely poor financial decision the best way you can, and be happy. Otherwise, get a bicycle.

Sorry, I've lost interest in debating it. Best wishes for whatever path you choose.

How about a 1st gen Volt? With the next Volt just around the corner sales of the current Volt are way down and I hear dealers are offering big discounts. I think a $8k discount not counting federal credits or state incentives is possible. That should drop the price down to around $30k before incentives.

Advantages are, it has a better than average range for a plug-in, reliability has been good and it at least feels like an EV. I think it might be a bit larger than some of the cars you mention. If your trips are not real far the mileage will be comparable. Low operating costs.

Disadvantages, it will soon be overshadowed by the next gen Volt which will have better range and performance, it's a very polarizing car either you love it or hate, good but not grate fuel economy and it uses premium fuel, it's smaller than a prius and no 5th seat although the rear seats fold down to create a cargo area large enough for two carriers. It appears to depreciate faster than the car you mention, not a problem if you plan to keep it for awhile.

I initially planed to buy a Leaf but later opted for a Volt. I'm happy, but that's me. The kicker for me is its my only car. I needed a car that I can occasionally drive 400 miles to visit my daughter and the Leaf while a great car, wouldn't work for me. I do have a 12 year pickup but I only use it when I have to haul big things, no way will I drive that beast 400 miles at 15 MPG, I'd use more gas than a year of driving in my Volt.

2k1Toaster said:

Civic Hybrid: NO. I've had many civics including a civic hybrid. Honda's IMA implementation is utter crap. Steer clear, it is not respective of an actual hybrid.

Click to expand...

Yep.

As I've posted elsewhere:
Toyota seems to do a pretty good job, at least w/the HV batteries on Gen 2 (04-09) Priuses and beyond. See http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs and what are supposedly Honda's weaknesses at http://priuschat.com/threads/salvage-traction-battery.89071/#post-1252078.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...brid-battery-reliability-gets-worse/index.htm was shockingly bad to me, much worse than even I expected.

I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a Honda hybrid since it seems they couldn't get NiMH right after over a decade... so them getting li-ion (they've switched over to it now) right w/much less experience doesn't sound that likely.

cwerdna said:

2k1Toaster said:

Civic Hybrid: NO. I've had many civics including a civic hybrid. Honda's IMA implementation is utter crap. Steer clear, it is not respective of an actual hybrid.

Click to expand...

Yep.

As I've posted elsewhere:
Toyota seems to do a pretty good job, at least w/the HV batteries on Gen 2 (04-09) Priuses and beyond. See http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs and what are supposedly Honda's weaknesses at http://priuschat.com/threads/salvage-traction-battery.89071/#post-1252078.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...brid-battery-reliability-gets-worse/index.htm was shockingly bad to me, much worse than even I expected.

I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a Honda hybrid since it seems they couldn't get NiMH right after over a decade... so them getting li-ion (they've switched over to it now) right w/much less experience doesn't sound that likely.

Click to expand...

I agree regarding a new Honda Civic Hybrid.

That said, I have recommended that several family members buy USED Honda Civic Hybrids. My son bought a 2005 HCH with 75,000 miles for $4200 and my mother bought a 2005 with 103,000 for $4000. I have replaced my mother's battery with a superior upgrade from BumbleBee Batteries for $2500. Her car with this new battery should easily last well beyond another 100,000 miles with an efficiency of 45-50 MPG. I will probably replace my son's battery within the next 6 months. Simply put, $6500 for a hybrid with that much life left in it is a great deal. I believe that is significantly less than you will pay for a comparable Toyota Prius, since those have NOT had the battery issues.

For reference, we bought our 2003 HCH 13 years ago and now have 100,000 miles on it. The battery is starting to have issues, but the fuel mileage is still at the lifetime average of 48 MPG and the car still runs and drives like new. We can probably hold out for another couple of years before replacing the battery and then I expect to get another 15 years out of the car. The Michelin tires we put on the car over 6 years ago have very little wear on them and I expect to get more than 100,000 total miles out of them. Overall, maintenance has run less than $100/year. It is simply the best car we have ever had.

If you shop around, you can find a good deal on a lightly-used Honda Civic Hybrid that will serve you well for many years after a battery replacement. What I don't know is if the dog carriers will fit into the back seat. I don't *think* the back seat is that much smaller than what is in the LEAF, but you would have to do a fit check.