Chargepoint Petition against PG&E charger build-out in CA

leafedbehind · Mar 4, 2015

I just received an email from ChargePoint asking me to sign on to a petition against PG&E's planned deployment of over 5000 new charging stations in California. I understand their perspective -- this is a threat to their business model. But I'm curious as to what you all think about this. I believe we certainly need a big jump in public charger count to encourage wider EV adoption, and while I like ChargePoint's capabilities, app integration, etc., lots more public charging seems good in whatever form.

Here is the petition: http://www.chargepoint.com/cp/petition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Steve

GetOffYourGas · Mar 4, 2015

This obviously doesn't apply to me, but I find it hard to come up with a good reason for an EV driver to sign that. Is PG&E's proposal anti-competitive? Maybe some regulation would help that forces utilities to compete on a level playing field with the private players?

davewill · Mar 4, 2015

On one hand, PG&E has some obvious advantages that an another vendor doesn't, but I don't see why they shouldn't be able to addressed by the regulatory process. I always pictured this falling out where we didn't care WHO owned the stations, we just used the a single payment provider (and maybe a single rate plan) no matter what station was used. It could be like the telephone company where it gets put on our electric bill, or someone like Chargepoint could become sort of like VISA or PayPal, and be our payment conduit. Or it could be like ATMs where we pay an extra fee for charging "out of network". Dealing with a myriad of vendors and payment schemes always seemed like a dead end. EVGo, for instance, if you don't sign up for a monthly plan gets pretty ridiculous pricewise. Are we supposed to sign up with them and then be locked out of everyone else? Or are we supposed to pay 4 different vendors each $20-30 a month?

It's too early to chop off options. I say let the utilities into the marketplace and add regulation so that they can't just screw vendors like Chargepoint on rates and so forth. We need the stations more than we need to protect Chargepoint.

OrientExpress · Mar 4, 2015

I think the best thing that can happen to the Public Charging situation in California is to get some adult supervision like PG&E. There is plenty of room for commercial enterprises like ChargePoint to participate in this as a supplier to PG&E, but selling electricity is PG&E's strong suite, just like selling gasoline is Exxon-Mobil's strength. And just like the gasoline market, there is room for independent operators to run their own charging network and buy their electricity from PG&E at wholesale.

How nice would it be to go to a public charging station, swipe a card, recharge my car, and at the end of the month see how much electricity I used for charging on my regular PG&E bill. Further if one had a Net Metering arrangement with the utility, then I could extend my ability to run on solar where ever I charge.

I don't understand ChargePoints position, They are not in the charging business per se, they are just a hardware vendor, and a conditional access provider. They could continue that business with PG&E on board.

Public Charging in California today is an absolute disaster. Bringing a public utility in to create order is exactly what needs to happen.

JeremyW · Mar 4, 2015

I can't wait to tell my kids and grand kids about how it use to be illegal for public utilities to own/operate public charging stations. Maybe I'll even tell them the story of the "secret handshake." :roll:

leafedbehind · Mar 5, 2015

I think ChargePoint is worried about being undercut on pricing. They don't set the price directly to the consumer, but they charge pretty high "care and feeding" rates to the entities that install their chargers (such as my employer), and most of those entities probably set prices so as to recover those costs. Perhaps ChargePoint has even bid for the opportunity to have PG&E use their hardware but lost, and now they want to try to stop them since they're not seeing something out of it. I think that in this case a rising tide raises all boats, and if PG&E's installing chargers causes a significant uptick in EV adoption, it has to help all EV equipment vendors in the long run.

I did not plan to sign on to the petition. I know PG&E can be the company we all love to hate, but I tend to agree with the sentiment that we need an "adult in the room". The Balkanization of the Northern CA charging is getting incredibly annoying. I know I shouldn't complain -- at least we have some chargers!

EVDrive · Mar 5, 2015

Chargepoint has good L2 hardware except for the fact you can't use a normal credit card to pay at the station without calling or being a member and swiping their crappy card (I'm on my fourth one that is wearing out and delaminating, the others stopped working after using almost daily for a year each at work). I HATE the special card model, what a nightmare, I have 5 cards from differt networks and one already went belly up.

As far as deploying stations outside of the sfbayarea, CP is a failure. The only station I could find between Vacaville CA and Oregon along I5 last summer during my ev roadtrip was a blink station in Redding Ca that was only open til 8pm, then locked. They suck at blanketing the state and providing easy access to their public stations for non members. They are good at workplace charging infrastructure.

I think PG and E is definitely an overcharging profit obsessed corrupt monopoly, however, if they cover the 1, 101, I5 and I80 in CA with level 2 and DCQC stations that have credit card readers, then bring it on.

RonDawg · Mar 5, 2015

EVDrive said:
Chargepoint has good L2 hardware except for the fact you can't use a normal credit card to pay at the station without calling or being a member and swiping their crappy card (I'm on my fourth one that is wearing out and delaminating, the others stopped working after using almost daily for a year each at work).

Swipe (mag-stripe) or RFID? My ChargePoint card is not the "swipe" kind but RFID. I just touch it to the display panel and it reads it. I've never seen a CP station with a credit-card style reader here in the LA area. I'm also not seeing the wearing-out and de-laminating issues that you are, even though my mini CP card stays in the car at all times so it's subjected to heat and cold.

BTW ChargePoint stations that use RFID also will accept RFID credit cards, and from personal experience also work with Apple devices that have ApplePay enabled.

srl99 · Mar 5, 2015

PG&E rate payers (rate victims, paying some of the highest residential rates in the country) will pay for all of this. At the beginning an extra $8/year, rising quickly. Aside from the handout to PG&E, what percentage of PG&E residential customers will even use these EVSEs? Why do they all need to pay? There should be a membership, with those who want to use them paying for them, AND it should be PG&Es capital at risk, not another burden to the ratepayers.

Maybe PG&E should build a network of cellphone chargers and have all rate payers pick up the tab (wait! no! I was being sarcastic!).

GetOffYourGas · Mar 5, 2015

All of the ChargePoints in upstate NY also accept only RFID. They work with either their special card or any credit/debit card with an RFID. Most times, you can call your credit card company and request a card with that feature. Most do not mail you such a card by default due to potential fraud (people have been known to poach credit cards with an RFID reader, in order to commit identity theft).

Nubo · Mar 5, 2015

As long as PG&E continues to stifle implementation of DCQCs with outrageous demand fees, they shouldn't be allowed to enter the public EVSE arena.

Randy · Mar 5, 2015

Nubo said:
As long as PG&E continues to stifle implementation of DCQCs with outrageous demand fees, they shouldn't be allowed to enter the public EVSE arena.

I'm not an expert in PG&E rates, but why couldn't a provider get a new service under A-6 TOU and connect their DC FC that way with no demand charges? It's good for up to 200 kW...

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_A-6.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DesertSprings · Mar 5, 2015

The local Chargpoint charger near me has a broken RFID reader. Rather than call, I just use the Chargepoint app on my phone to turn on charging.

(Charger also has a separate problem, that when it gets hot out the 3G modem stops working so no matter what you can't start a charge)

toolworker · Mar 5, 2015

I'll spare you the details, but based on a lot of experience I can tell you that PG&E is a past master at gaming the system to their advantage and screwing any other players. Plus, they own the Public Utilities Commission.

What they're trying here is to enter the charging station market with zero equipment cost to them. Me and their other customers will foot the bill.

They'll undercut the other players and make it uneconomical for anyone else to install new chargers.

And you can bet that they have a strategy to exploit their monopoly, once it's established.

OrientExpress · Mar 5, 2015

I'll spare you the details, but based on a lot of experience I can tell you that PG&E is a past master at gaming the system to their advantage and screwing any other players. Plus, they own the Public Utilities Commission.

What they're trying here is to enter the charging station market with zero equipment cost to them. Me and their other customers will foot the bill.

You are absolutely correct in your observation. Regulated utilities routinely pass on capital costs onto their ratepayers. This is a basic part of their business.

They'll undercut the other players and make it uneconomical for anyone else to install new chargers.

Excellent! The economics of a public charging networks make for-profit charging networks an impossible business model. An extension of offering electric service for a specific market need is what regulated utilities do best.

And you can bet that they have a strategy to exploit their monopoly, once it's established.

I certainly expect that they will create a business that works for all parties involved. (even the public charging freeloaders could have a lifeline rate to meet their financial situations).

In the end having regulated utilities offer their customers specialty electricity service (EV charging) and integrating that service into their established service and support model is the perfect scenario and a real game changer.

GeekEV · Mar 6, 2015

Ron Freund said:
The Electric Auto Association is aware of a petition circulating which opposes public utilities providing public charging stations. Pacific Gas & Electric is requesting permission from the California Public Utilities Commision to install 25,100 EV charging stations throughout its service territory. SCE and SDG&E have similar requests. We welcome all parties interested in expanding the EV infrastructure and embrace the state’s major electricity providers’ entrance in the charging station business. The combined influx of over one billion dollars from these three energy providers dwarfs other efforts made to date and would invigorate the move to electrification of mobility in nearly all of our communities. To meet Governor Brown’s target of 1.5 million EVs on the road, we need to accelerate the deployment ramp of EV infrastructure. The increase of EVs will support plenty of competition in the infrastructure equipment marketplace.

We do not agree with the notions presented in the petition that innovation will be stifled. A rapid increase in the EV market will provide a wide range of economic opportunities. The Electric Auto Association supports the all parties, including the utilities in entering the California EVSE market for the benefits of clean air, national economic security, and job creation.

The EAA recommends not signing the ChargePoint petition against PG&E’s request to install 25,100 EV charging stations.

I agree 100%. While I am a fan of ChargePoint for what they've accomplished thus far and the overall quality of their offerings, I was disappointed by their email opposing this move PG&E. I did not sign it and nearly sent them a nasty retort, but refrained. Perhaps we should start a counter petition supporting PG&E?

Nubo · Mar 6, 2015

I signed. In the larger scheme of things I don't think a patchwork of entrenched public utility fiefdoms is the right way to go. A leopard doesn't change its spots. These are regulated monopolies and monopolistic thinking runs deep.

Randy · Apr 3, 2015

A new bill (AB1005) is now moving through the process. There is a lot of language in the bill, which can be confusing, but one of the goals seems to be to eliminate utility ownership of public charging equipment...Interesting...

Example:
Section 1, 4b2: Protect competitive markets for electric vehicle charging equipment and network charging services from unfair competition by clarifying that electrical corporations may only own electric vehicle service equipment used to charge electric vehicles owned by the electrical corporation and its employees, and that electrical corporations may not provide electric vehicle charging services.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1005" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

desiv · Apr 3, 2015

Randy said:
Example:
Section 1, 4b2: Protect competitive markets for electric vehicle charging equipment and network charging services from unfair competition by clarifying that electrical corporations may only own electric vehicle service equipment used to charge electric vehicles owned by the electrical corporation and its employees, and that electrical corporations may not provide electric vehicle charging services.

So they wouldn't even be able to provide free charging for their customers at their offices?
(As some do in a (very) few places..)

Hmmm..

desiv

Chargepoint Petition against PG&E charger build-out in CA

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