Is it even possible to waste electricity in the winter?

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LTLFTcomposite

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
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4,780
Location
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In a climate where heat is required in the winter can electricity be "wasted" around the house? For example lights or computers left on, the electricity used eventually results in heat, right? Assuming the house needs to be heated anyway, doesn't all the electricity used offset whatever would have been used for heating?
 
I've thought the same thing and sort of agree. The sort of comes from the fact that electricity is generally an expensive &or wasteful way to heat. The exception would be if you get your electricity from a very cheap and very 'clean' source.

And of course this dynamic works against you in the summer.
 
Electricity is inherently a poor way to heat in it's most efficient form. Period.
 
LeftieBiker said:
EVDRIVER said:
Electricity is inherently a poor way to heat in it's most efficient form. Period.
Heatpumps are a poor way to heat?
Compared to natural gas or propane or even oil, yes. Almost 100% of their energy content can be turned into heat, whereas electricity from those sources has already lost about 50% of its energy content by the time it reaches your outlet. And even if the electricity has zero loss, heat pumps have only 75% "efficiency" or so.

So heat with gas, and save the electricity for a ceiling fan!
 
Aside from all the losses associated with extracting, refining and transporting oil, I think that "poor" is dependent on more factors than just conversion efficiency. I live 3/4 of a mile from a hydroelectric plant, so I suspect that I'm better off using electricity. I know I'm doing better environmentally.
 
I had a $172 credit on my electric bill going into November, (lose it on December 31st, if not used) bought an portable electric heater for $59, it has been heating the master bedroom nicely. Won't be using the expensive natural gas heater until January if then.
 
Lefftie: As long as you know that's where the electricity is coming from, agreed*. And if it is inexpensive (I'm guessing that break-even with natural gas at its current price is $0.05/kWh), you're probably better off financially as well.

pchilds: We are only comparing the fuels and their heating value, not the hardware used in converting the fuels to heat.


* Of course, dams have their own environmental costs as well. :-\
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
In a climate where heat is required in the winter can electricity be "wasted" around the house? For example lights or computers left on, the electricity used eventually results in heat, right? Assuming the house needs to be heated anyway, doesn't all the electricity used offset whatever would have been used for heating?
The light possibly leaks some of the light out the windows - that heat is lost.
The computer leaks some light out the windows, but probably less than the lights.
In either case, the best is the energy of the electricity converted to heat - 1 watt gives 3.41 BTU per hour.
A heat pump moves 3 - 4 times the energy input, resulting in 4 - 5 times as much heat output as if the electrical energy were just converted to electricity.
So, if you want heat from electricity, a heat pump is far better than waste heat or resistive heating.
So, yes, it is possible to waste electricity in the winter.
 
alanlarson said:
The light possibly leaks some of the light out the windows - that heat is lost.
The computer leaks some light out the windows, but probably less than the lights.
In either case, the best is the energy of the electricity converted to heat - 1 watt gives 3.41 BTU per hour.
A heat pump moves 3 - 4 times the energy input, resulting in 4 - 5 times as much heat output as if the electrical energy were just converted to electricity.
So, if you want heat from electricity, a heat pump is far better than waste heat or resistive heating.
So, yes, it is possible to waste electricity in the winter.
Heat lost to light, even infrared, going out windows is minimal to none, but otherwise I agree that a heat pump is a better way to go than resistive heating if the hardware is already paid for. Heat pumps are apparently quite expensive. Plus, if the outside air is really cold, they are not sufficient just by themselves to keep a house at 70 degrees (thus requiring an additional backup source of heat).

Interesting factoids about the heat pumps regardless. It appears like they are more competitive with gas than I thought, and (surprisingly, to me) maybe even better at times. I'm learning a bit more about them as I go ;-) and was lead to this detailed comparison of heating costs for resistive, heat pump, and gas (furnace) furnace heaters for a Portland home at various outside temperatures. It gets fairly complicated, but here is his "Bottom Line Summary":
Electric space heater heat: ~$0.102/kWh
Gas heat: ~$0.042/kWh
Heat Pump Electric heat: ~$0.026/kWh
Of course, varying prices for electricity and natural gas (by region and year, time of year, or even time of day) are what make the comparison even more complicated.
 
I see what you mean about the heat pump, if I were to heat the place with electricity it would be more efficient with a heat pump. This is in a cold climate though, a lot of hours of the day it wouldn't work, not to mention it would get buried in snow, and there is no air conditioning so a heat pump would be a huge additional cost. Upgrading the furnace to 97% is on the list.

So maybe the more accurate thinking is if you're going to waste electricity this is the place to do it :)

Replacing incandescent bulbs with LED probably has a much smaller payoff in this setting, although I've been gradually doing so anyway just because of the convenience of not having them burn out all the time.
 
Those in the cold north should consider a ground-source heat pump. I installed mine in 2006 - it costs me about $400 - $500/year to heat my house and is much more efficient than standard heat pumps. Plus it provides the lowest cost air conditioning possible in the summer - it doesn't take a lot of energy to pump heat from the warm house to the cold ground, especially compared to the amount taken to pump heat from a warm house to a much hotter outside.
 
With all but the kitchen being LED in my house, I am afraid I will be cold this winter. and as others probably mentioned by now, heat rises so only the ceiling where the lights reside would even begin to be warm.

If you want to be warm, use your cable box as a foot warmer. it can be placed on the floor in most cases and you will find it puts off ample heat even when you are not watching TV. I read an article once that in Summer in the Pacific Northwest, its the #2 power user in the house after your fridge. (it would be 3rd after A/C in Southern areas)

The other thing to consider is how often the house sits empty and how well insulated it is. Mine sits empty for as much as 12 hours frequently so our heat gets set at 55º and I turn it up when I get home. I timed the heat cycle twice for several hours on typical weather days to determine how long the heater would run (I can hear the gas flip on fairly easily, the fan is not a good indicator of when power (or gas in my case) is being used) and found that even maintaining a low home temperature of say 64º uses more power than simply turning it way down then having it warm up when we get home.

but a lot of people don't like doing that because they are wim... I mean cause they like consistency
 
ranss12 said:
Those in the cold north should consider a ground-source heat pump. I installed mine in 2006 - it costs me about $400 - $500/year to heat my house and is much more efficient than standard heat pumps. Plus it provides the lowest cost air conditioning possible in the summer - it doesn't take a lot of energy to pump heat from the warm house to the cold ground, especially compared to the amount taken to pump heat from a warm house to a much hotter outside.

Those in hot regions should consider Geothermal heat pumps as well.

It's much more efficient to dump excess heat into ~60 F water, than into 100+ F air!

Mine (installed in 1997, and the only maintenance/repair required to date was one ~$60 dollar service call for an electrical contact that loosened from vibration) is used primarily for cooling, and much of the "waste" heat it sucks out of my house during the Summer goes into my water heater through a secondary loop, for even greater efficiency.

I heat mostly with firewood, but the heat pump would even be cheaper than firewood, if I didn't grow my own.
 
LeftieBiker said:
EVDRIVER said:
Electricity is inherently a poor way to heat in it's most efficient form. Period.

Heatpumps are a poor way to heat?

Heat pumps are 3 to dozens of times more efficient than resistive heat depending on the heat pump, the outside temperature, and the inside temperature.

When comparing the performance of heat pumps, it is best to avoid the word "efficiency", which has a very specific thermodynamic definition. The term coefficient of performance (COP) is used to describe the ratio of useful heat movement per work input. Most vapor-compression heat pumps use electrically powered motors for their work input. However, in many vehicle applications, mechanical energy from an internal combustion engine provides the needed work.

According to the US EPA, geothermal heat pumps can reduce energy consumption up to 44% compared with air-source heat pumps and up to 72% compared with electric resistance heating.[3] Heatpumps in general have a COP of 4.2 to 4-6 which places it behind cogeneration with a COP of 9.[4]

When used for heating a building with an outside temperature of, for example, 10 °C, a typical air-source heat pump (ASHP) has a COP of 3 to 4, whereas an electrical resistance heater has a COP of 1.0. That is, one joule of electrical energy will cause a resistance heater to produce only one joule of useful heat, while under ideal conditions, one joule of electrical energy can cause a heat pump to move three or four joules of heat from a cooler place to a warmer place. Note that an air source heat pump is more efficient in hotter climates than cooler ones, so when the weather is much warmer the unit will perform with a higher COP (as it has less work to do). Conversely in extreme cold weather the COP approaches 1. Thus when there is a wide temperature differential between the hot and cold reservoirs, the COP is lower (worse).
 
It is a very real thing. One of my server racks consumes about 2KW of power. That has to run 24/7/365, so it is heating all the time. It is enough to where the basement area it is in can be 10-20 degrees F warmer than other areas of the house when the heat is off. In the winter that zone rarely ever turns the heat on, so I have to force a minimal amount of water circulation so the radiant heat pipes don't freeze.
 
Our gas boiler had a problem a few years ago. I turned on all the electrical appliances in the house (unnecessarily) all the lights on, etc.. With a supporting couple of fan heaters upstairs, the whole house pretty much kept to 20C with 0C outside!

If the electricity is cheap enough and generated in the manner you 'don't mind' it generated, then the answer to your question is pretty much no.

Except for......

.... an electric kettle. This is a waste of electricity in winter, if yoy have gas hobs. What you should use in winter is a gas stove kettle. The exhaust gas is vented directly into the house, so you waste nothing of the thermal content of the gas at all. In summer, you then use an electric kettle because you then want the opposite, you now want to avoid venting waste heat into the house.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
...The other thing to consider is how often the house sits empty and how well insulated it is. Mine sits empty for as much as 12 hours frequently so our heat gets set at 55º and I turn it up when I get home. I timed the heat cycle twice for several hours on typical weather days to determine how long the heater would run (I can hear the gas flip on fairly easily, the fan is not a good indicator of when power (or gas in my case) is being used) and found that even maintaining a low home temperature of say 64º uses more power than simply turning it way down then having it warm up when we get home.

but a lot of people don't like doing that because they are wim... I mean cause they like consistency
Well, your temperatures seem a bit high to me: I keep the thermostat set at 62º mornings and evenings and 52º at night. During the day the house gets additional heat from the sun most days — lots of east and south facing windows. (But sun isn't something one likely gets much in Olympia in winter...)

The secret to lowering the thermostat is to dress warmly in winter. When I go into a house that is at 70º this time of the year it feels uncomfortably warm because I am acclimated to cooler temperatures.
 
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