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I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:59 am
by edatoakrun
I do not understand Nissan USA's apparent reluctance to contribute to the development of the public fast charge infrastructure.

Billions of dollars have been invested by Nissan in designing and producing the LEAF. IMO the design and concept is far superior to any of the "plug-in" or ICE "conversions" that will enter the market in the next few years. But there is currently a glaring failure in the LEAF concept to any potential American buyer. Nissan is allowing it's EV competitors to beat it up over "range anxiety" and slower level 2 charge times.

The total cost of a DC fast charger installation is reported to be only $5,000-$25,000, before various subsidies and tax credits. Why Is Nissan not making any effort to promote DC infrastructure development? This is by far the most cost-effective way to increase the range and practically of the Leaf to current (any of you owners even used a DC charger yet?) and future drivers.

EV drivers do not need fast charging at home or at the dealer. They need to be able to get an occasional fast charge on the road BETWEEN destinations.

Until roadside charging becomes a reality, EV/ICE half-breeds like the Volt will be named "car of the year", and actual EV's will be considered fringe products.

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:37 am
by Jimmydreams
edatoakrun wrote:I do not understand Nissan USA's apparent reluctance to contribute to the development of the public fast charge infrastructure.

Billions of dollars have been invested by Nissan in designing and producing the LEAF. IMO the design and concept is far superior to any of the "plug-in" or ICE "conversions" that will enter the market in the next few years. But there is currently a glaring failure in the LEAF concept to any potential American buyer. Nissan is allowing it's EV competitors to beat it up over "range anxiety" and slower level 2 charge times.

The total cost of a DC fast charger installation is reported to be only $5,000-$25,000, before various subsidies and tax credits. Why Is Nissan not making any effort to promote DC infrastructure development? This is by far the most cost-effective way to increase the range and practically of the Leaf to current (any of you owners even used a DC charger yet?) and future drivers.

EV drivers do not need fast charging at home or at the dealer. They need to be able to get an occasional fast charge on the road BETWEEN destinations.

Until roadside charging becomes a reality, EV/ICE half-breeds like the Volt will be named "car of the year", and actual EV's will be considered fringe products.


I don't understand what more you want Nissan to do. They offer L3 charging on the Leaf.

What about all the people do don't have garages who want a Leaf? Should Nissan build them a garage as well?? I think Nissan is doing about all it can at this stage of the game. For L3 charging, you have much higher unit costs, plus a LOT more behind-the-scenes infrastructure concerns. Getting my L2 EVSE was enough of a nightmare that I can easily understand Nissan leaving L3 chargers to individual cities or entities that can make it work.

I'd bet Nissan wishes L3 chargers were going in in more places, but even the EVP (which has some backing by the Department of Energy) is running into delays with the public chargers because of permitting, costs, etc. This is a process and it will take time. The Leaf isn't for every driver or every location in the country. Yet. Leaf 2.0 or 3.0 will be offer much more usability to much more of the country. Crawl, then walk, then run. If you try and skip a step, you're doomed.

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:44 am
by AndyH
L3 is being worked in a number of areas - and there are already L3 chargers in operation.

Nissan's been working all over the US to recruit committed partners cities and electric companies, streamline permitting and EVSE installation, and get dealers on-board to ensure there's a support network prior to the cars 'landing'.

Considering it's only been a few months since the CHAdeMO L3 units won UL approval, I think things are rolling along very nicely!

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:07 am
by edatoakrun
"L3 is being worked in a number of areas - and there are already L3 chargers in operation."

How many in the USA?

Can Bay area LEAF owners conveniently drive to Reno/Tahoe?

Can SoCal owners recharge on the the way to Las Vegas?

You owners in other states, aren't there logical "early adopter corridors" where L3 would be useful? Are the chargers there, or even in the planning stage?

"Getting my L2 EVSE was enough of a nightmare that I can easily understand Nissan leaving L3 chargers to individual cities or entities that can make it work."

And it was a "nightmare" of very limited benefit, useful only to yourself.

A great virtue of EV's is the utility of being able to charge at home, whether you choose level 1 or 2 home charging.

But the greatest drawback of EV's will always be limited range, making the PUBLIC infrastructure crucial.

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:28 am
by Jimmydreams
edatoakrun wrote:"L3 is being worked in a number of areas - and there are already L3 chargers in operation."

How many in the USA?

Can Bay area LEAF owners conveniently drive to Reno/Tahoe?

Can SoCal owners recharge on the the way to Las Vegas?

You owners in other states, aren't there logical "early adopter corridors" where L3 would be useful? Are the chargers there, or even in the planning stage?

"Getting my L2 EVSE was enough of a nightmare that I can easily understand Nissan leaving L3 chargers to individual cities or entities that can make it work."

And it was a "nightmare" of very limited benefit, useful only to yourself.

A great virtue of EV's is the utility of being able to charge at home, whether you choose level 1 or 2 home charging.

But the greatest drawback of EV's will always be limited range, making the PUBLIC infrastructure crucial.


My point about the nightmare of my L2 was to illustrate that the nightmare must be exponentially worse for L3 systems, public or private.

At the risk of sounding like an ass, you complain about what Nissan is not doing... Are you yourself doing anything proactive to help the public infrastructure come to fruition faster? Are you actively involved with the EVP or PlugInAmerica or any number of groups pressing forward the EV agenda? Have you written your Congressperson regarding the need for a public charging system? Have you done any research to show others the physical benefits to EV's over ICE transportation? If you are and have, then fantastic. If you aren't or haven't, complaining here won't help anything.

We're all in this together.

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:17 pm
by edatoakrun
"At the risk of sounding like an ass, you complain about what Nissan is not doing... Are you yourself doing anything proactive to help the public infrastructure come to fruition faster?"

I wouldn't say you sound like an ass, JD, if that was your meaning...

I posted this as a "suggestion" for Nissan, because I think their apparent expectation of DC fast charging (there is a reason we are ordering the L3 option-right?) is not materializing, as expected. And if they Want the LEAF to be a commercial success in the USA, I think they should take note of the market situation now emerging.

As far as my contribution, I am hoping (by driving one) to illustrate the fact that EV's are not just for the stereotyped trendy subsidy-seekers, but also a public benefit for the nation as a whole. And to do that, EV's need the range that only distributed fast-charging can provide. For my extended opinion, see:

http://anewscafe.com/2010/04/23/2010-no ... he-planet/

"...Gasoline and diesel have been the primary vehicle fuels for the last century. High energy density means they are excellent energy storage mediums, allowing for low fuel weight and a long range between fill-ups. Unfortunately, each pound of fuel burned produces about three pounds of CO2 pollution. ..

Another option will soon be available - Electric Vehicles (EVs). We're stretching the 2010 date a bit here. Several practical (with ranges of 100 miles or more and prices of $35,000 and less) electric vehicles will hit the market within a year, but we may have to wait a little longer to get the fast-charging infrastructure to 'fill-up' on the road here in North California. But you can start thinking, and planning, now."

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:21 pm
by jkyu99
A new business for route 66? Nissan - CHAdeMO drive in restaurant?
Someday. . .
Image

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:41 pm
by smkettner
edatoakrun wrote:EV drivers do not need fast charging at home or at the dealer. They need to be able to get an occasional fast charge on the road BETWEEN destinations.

And yet Nissan has AV install twice the power evse that that the Leaf is even capable of using. I wonder how many has had to upgrade the electric panel etc to get a 40a circuit as opposed to a 20a circuit that could have been used with a plenty capable 16a evse and the existing 3.3 charger. :roll: :(

Even if Nissan upgrades the charger to 6.6 the smaller evse would work fine at home charging overnight.

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:50 pm
by DarkStar
smkettner wrote:And yet Nissan has AV install twice the power evse that that the Leaf is even capable of using.

I've got a theory about this! :D

I think Nissan's plan is to release vehicles with greater battery capacity, but will put higher powered chargers in those vehicles. That way the customer "trained experience" is exactly the same.

Leaf: 24 KWh Pack - 6.6 KW charger - 4 hour charge
Unknown Nissan Car: 48 KWh Pack - 6.6 KW charger - 8 hour charge

vs.

Leaf: 24 KWh Pack - 3.3 KW charger - 8 hour charge
Unknown Nissan Car: 48 KWh Pack - 6.6 KW charger - 8 hour charge

The perception is that the new car is as good as the previously released car since it doesn't take longer to charge. Another theory is that they'll use the same battery pack, but upgrade the charger for a "premium" branded vehicle (think "Infiniti") to give the perception that it's better since it charges "faster". :D

Re: I Want my (fast) DC!

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:27 pm
by EVDRIVER
DarkStar wrote:
smkettner wrote:And yet Nissan has AV install twice the power evse that that the Leaf is even capable of using.

I've got a theory about this! :D

I think Nissan's plan is to release vehicles with greater battery capacity, but will put higher powered chargers in those vehicles. That way the customer "trained experience" is exactly the same.

Leaf: 24 KWh Pack - 6.6 KW charger - 4 hour charge
Unknown Nissan Car: 48 KWh Pack - 6.6 KW charger - 8 hour charge

vs.

Leaf: 24 KWh Pack - 3.3 KW charger - 8 hour charge
Unknown Nissan Car: 48 KWh Pack - 6.6 KW charger - 8 hour charge



The perception is that the new car is as good as the previously released car since it doesn't take longer to charge. Another theory is that they'll use the same battery pack, but upgrade the charger for a "premium" branded vehicle (think "Infiniti") to give the perception that it's better since it charges "faster". :D




You are overanalyzing it, it was a cost cutting issue and bad marketing decision pure and simple. I'm betting the first intent was 6.6kw as there was written and stated info early on outlining 4 hour full charges on L2.