SAE combo plug/Frankenplug EV/PHEV car list

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

cwerdna

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,674
Location
SF Bay Area, CA
Ok, since we have a lot of arguments and discussion going on in the CHAdeMO vs. Frankenplug threads, how about we list cars that we know are going to come out with the Frankenplug either standard or as an option?

Please list the make, model, availability date and whether combo plug is optional or standard. It'd be interesting to know where it's going to be available and the manufacturer's sales projections.
 
cwerdna said:
make, model, availability date and whether combo plug is optional or standard.


First, a comment: During a Tesla shareholder's call, when the SAE standard was pointed out to Elon Musk, he said "Yes, the SAE have a standard. But it sucks." Which is why TM went its own way. However, this article from March 2013 SAE article suggests that Tesla is 100% SAE compliant. Probably not a neutral source for information about a standard with so many SAE press releases and so few cars. Tesla intends to offer a CHAdeMO adapter in the future.

http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/tools/11923" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Frankenplug Cast Members:

1. Audi - June 3, 2012 - cancels EV plans http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076657_audi-cans-electric-a2-city-car-a1-e-tron-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. BMW - i3, Fall 2013/Early 2014 - these guys are the only ones of any of the Frankenplug consortium to have a serious EV program, that goes beyond just meeting California Air Resources Board ZEV standards.

http://www.bmw-i.com/en_ww/bmw-i3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [no specific mention of Frankenplug, but it is widely known that is their intention. Also, it doesn't mention if Frankenplug is standard or optional, but the range extender is optional.

"The battery can be fully recharged in six hours at a standard power socket [230 volts in Europe, not our 120v]. If a high-speed charger is used an 80 per cent charge can be achieved in just one hour..... The BMW i3 Concept therefore offers an optional range extender, the REx, which allows the driving range to be increased. REx, a small, very smooth-running and quiet petrol engine, drives a generator"

Update April 21, 2013:

BMW was my only hope for a Frankenplug savior in the USA. Well, it looks like I was right. Frankenplug is DEAD ON ARRIVAL if nobody will pick up the torch and run with it. It looks like the BMW i3 might have been a strict CARB-ZEV compliance car after all, which means that they aren't going to spend Frankenbucks on Frankenplugs:

Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA) board member Steve Jurvetson spoke with FOX Business Network’s (FBN) Melissa Francis about the future of Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA). Jurvetson said, On whether Tesla investor’s should be worried about the new BMW electric car that is coming out next year:

“Well, both Elon and I burst into laughter with the questions just because Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (FRA:BMW) itself said – and I’ve never heard any product release say this a year before its release – we’re not trying to make the best electric car; we’re building this vehicle because we have to for regulatory reasons. They’re basically they’re saying don’t judge us by this car and whether it’s any good or not a year before it’s released. It’s totally a different kind of product. It doesn’t have very good range; and they’re putting in a gasoline lawnmower engine in there as a backup. It’s kind of an odd duck.”

Tags: BMW, Electric car, FBN, Fox Business, hybrid car, Steve Jurvetson, Tesla

This entry was posted on August 21, 2013 at 4:24 pm and is filed under Business.

http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/08/tesla-motors-board-member-laughs-at-bmw/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



3. Chrysler / Fiat - they don't even want to take "free" government money to develop EVs, and gave it back. Nada from them. The Fiat 500e compliance car has no mention of quick charging or combo plug (nor J1772), only 240 and 120 volt charge times.

4. Daimler - working with Tesla, which means unlikely their first EV efforts will have anything more than what the Toyota Rav4 EV has.... no DC fact charger. The pictures shown so far have enough room for a CHAdeMO plug along side the Menekke plug for the European market. Presumably, a J1772 plug would be used in North America.

5. Ford - nada. The Focus EV is a luke warm effort to comply with CARB.

6. General Motors - Spark, Spring 2014. Just a California CARB compliance car. Toyota has to sell 2600 Rav4 EVs, so I suspect GM must sell a similar volume.

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/chevrolet-spark-ev-will-be-made-south-korea-43108.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Frankenplug is optional on Spark EV and initial markets include California, Oregon, Canada, South Korea and other global markets.

“The Spark EV will be sold in limited quantities in select U.S. and global markets starting in 2013 (as a 2014 model), including California,” Fox said. “We have not announced any additional markets beyond California and have not said exactly when in 2013 they will be available. More news and information will be coming as we get closer to the introduction and launch of the Spark EV.”

"“The Spark EV will be produced in Changwon, South Korea, the same location as the Spark with the internal combustion engine," said GM's Randy Fox, Electric Vehicle Technology Communications."

"Actually, the Spark EV's range – along with curb weight, price, top speed, on-board charger details, and other specifications – are still not being shared, Fox said, as these are still being finalized."

"Although Fox did not say so, it’s likely the company will continue using SAE charging connections as it does with the Volt, and not CHAdeMO. He did confirm DC fast charging will be available."


7. Porsche - nada

8. Renault - tentative and tepid announcement after the other 8 announced that they are "in". No car announced to handle it, though, and they announced their own 43kW AC "Chameleon" fast charger and support of CHAdeMO that sister company Nissan uses.

9. Volkswagen - They have a ChadeMo Blink at their San Francisco tech center, and plan to use converted Golf's in 2013, presumably to be strictly CARB compliance cars:

"Volkswagen, a major promoter of the Combo system, plans to put EVs on the market around the world from 2013 by converting some of its Golf and other popular models.

While Volkswagen will use the Combo system as the charging system for its EVs, the company will modify relevant units to accommodate the CHAdeMo system for the Japanese market."


I would guess that the not specifically mentioned USA that will have beau coup ChadeMo's compared to perhaps zero Frankenplugs might also get those "modified / accommodated" VW cars here in the USA.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/08/2121867/automakers-aim-to-set-global-standard.html#storylink=cpy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
TonyWilliams said:
<snip>"The battery can be fully recharged in six hours at a standard power socket [230 volts in Europe, not our 120v]. If a high-speed charger is used an 80 per cent charge can be achieved in just one hour..... The BMW i3 Concept therefore offers an optional range extender, the REx, which allows the driving range to be increased. REx, a small, very smooth-running and quiet petrol engine, drives a generator"
http://www.plugincars.com/bmw-i3/review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The i3 will charge in about three hours, and the Level 2 charging will be 30 amps at 7kW. It will also have DC quick charge ability, utilizing the SAE combo plug, allowing for an 80-percent in less than a half hour."
 
Don't forget the planned production quantities of the vehicles. Frankenplug cars may appear but their will be Frankenfew of them for some years to come.

The SAE standardization effort would carry more credibility if they were planning to ship even 10,000 SAE DC Fast Charge ports on vehicles between now and thru 2014. I can understand their concerns for a single connector, but of all the issues in the EV industry, this isn't a huge one compared to other issues like getting more consumers into cars. You don't see GM trying to standardize 87/89/92 Octane Gasoline and Diesel into a single fuel. A pragmatic interpretation may be that the compliance only car makers are using this to deliberately sabotage car makers that have put over 20,000 Electric Vehicles on the road, while the compliance car companies ar just beginningto sell their first units that con't even have a DC Fast Charge port - or an upgrade path to one...

It's also surprising that they are not lobbying against wireless EV charging or battery swapping so that we have a single global standard for charging EVs. Right. Brought to you by the same people that gave you AB475.

Electric Cars: Some Are Real, Most Are Only 'Compliance Cars'--We Name Names
By John Voelcker May 3, 2012

We'd suggest that any plug-in car has to meet the following criteria before it can be considered real:

•It's sold outright to consumers, not only leased; and
•It will sell at least 5,000 or more a year in the U.S. or reach total global sales of 20,000; and
•It's offered outside the 'California emissions' states, or will be within 18 months
Any car that doesn't meet those tests at a minimum isn't a serious volume car; it's either part of a test fleet or it exists just to comply with the ZEV requirement.

Applying that test, we can find only four battery-electric cars that are or may be "real" during 2012. Three are on sale now, one isn't yet:

•2012 Nissan Leaf
•2012 Mitsubishi 'i'
•2012 Coda Sedan
•2012 Tesla Model S

Naming names

OK, so which cars aren't real? We believe several battery-electric cars announced for 2012 through 2014 are only "compliance cars."

Not so coincidentally, there's one apiece from each of the five non-Nissan carmakers required to sell ZEVs starting this year:

•Chevrolet Spark EV
•Fiat 500 Elettrica
•Ford Focus Electric
•Honda Fit EV
•Toyota RAV4 EV
All are conversions of existing gasoline vehicles, rather than purpose-built battery-electric vehicles like the Nissan Leaf or Tesla Model S. Four of the five manufacturers are consistently opaque--for which read stonewalling--about even the basic details of their cars' technologies, launch plans, and sales areas.

And those are the tipoffs that these are all compliance cars. We'll go through them one by one.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-most-are-only-compliance-cars--we-name-names
Looking for Nissan's Inflection Point on Electric Cars
By Brad Berman · April 04, 2012
...Katherine Zachary, a spokesperson for Nissan USA, told PluginCars.com yesterday that global sales of the LEAF are "just over 27,000."
http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-leaf-sales-inflection-120047.html
 
scottf200 said:
TonyWilliams said:
<snip>"The battery can be fully recharged in six hours at a standard power socket [230 volts in Europe, not our 120v]. If a high-speed charger is used an 80 per cent charge can be achieved in just one hour..... The BMW i3 Concept therefore offers an optional range extender, the REx, which allows the driving range to be increased. REx, a small, very smooth-running and quiet petrol engine, drives a generator"
http://www.plugincars.com/bmw-i3/review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The i3 will charge in about three hours, and the Level 2 charging will be 30 amps at 7kW. It will also have DC quick charge ability, utilizing the SAE combo plug, allowing for an 80-percent in less than a half hour."

Well, I can find news clips with speculation. Certainly, I believe that to be true. But that's not what BMW is putting out officially on their own website.
 
TonyWilliams said:
cwerdna said:
make, model, availability date and whether combo plug is optional or standard.

Frankenplug Cast Members:

1. Audi - nothing announced

2. BMW - i3, Fall 2013/Early 2014 - these guys are the only ones of any of the Frankenplug consortium to have a serious EV program, that goes beyond just meeting California Air Resources Board ZEV standards.

http://www.bmw-i.com/en_ww/bmw-i3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [no specific mention of Frankenplug, but it is widely known that is their intention. Also, it doesn't mention if Frankenplug is standard or optional, but the range extender is optional.]

"The battery can be fully recharged in six hours at a standard power socket [230 volts in Europe, not our 120v]. If a high-speed charger is used an 80 per cent charge can be achieved in just one hour..... The BMW i3 Concept therefore offers an optional range extender, the REx, which allows the driving range to be increased. REx, a small, very smooth-running and quiet petrol engine, drives a generator"

Chrysler - they don't even want to take "free" government money to develop EVs, and gave it back. Nada from them.

Daimler - working with Tesla, which means unlikely their first EV efforts will have anything more than what the Toyota Rav4 EV has.... no DC fact charger

Ford - nada

General Motors - Spark, Fall 2013 / Spring 2014, again, like BMW, no real specifics about DC fast charging or whether it will be equipped as standard, or optional.

Porsche - nada

Renault - tentative and tepid announcement after the other 8 announced that they are "in". No car announced to handle it, though, and they announced their own 43kW AC fast charger and support of ChadeMo.

Volkswagen - nada (and they have a ChadeMo Blink at their San Francisco headquarters)

Volkswagen owns Audi and 49% of Porsche, so we shouldn't double count. Nissan and Renault are both run by Carlos Ghosn. There's no way Frankenplug will ever be used in a Renault.
 
ENIAC said:
Volkswagen owns Audi and 49% of Porsche, so we shouldn't double count. Nissan and Renault are both run by Carlos Ghosn. There's no way Frankenplug will ever be used in a Renault.
I wouldn't necessarily call the above double counting unless the cars are almost identical (e.g. badge-engineered cars like the Pontiac 6000, Olds Cutlass Ciera, Chevy Celebrity, Buick Century).

Off the top of my head, I can only think of one Audi that's almost identical to its Porsche and VW versions. Most of the other vehicles sold under those nameplates don't have counterparts (or very similar ones) under the other nameplates.
 
TonyWilliams said:
General Motors - Spark, Fall 2013 / Spring 2014, again, like BMW, no real specifics about DC fast charging or whether it will be equipped as standard, or optional.

Jay Cole InsideEVs:
Said to begin production in January of 2013, GM spokesman Kevin Kelly said the Spark EV will offer the new Combined Charging System on board when production does begin, making it the first announced new electric offering to thrown down the challenge to CHAdeMO.
Karla Sanchez Motortrend:
GM spokesman Kevin Kelly says it all depends. “It varies on battery chemistry design and capabilities, but some batteries can be quick-charged multiple times.” Kelly also noted the upcoming Chevrolet Spark EV will be able to handle fast charging and work with the shared system.

The Combined Charging System
is projected to be available by the end of this year while vehicles compatible with the technology should become available in 2013. All automakers involved currently have vehicles in development that will be compatible with the system.
 
"And while BMW itself hasn’t run into any production or development snags in its i3 and i8 models, electric cars have not been as well-received as BMW had hoped, especially worldwide. As of right now, the engineering and tooling work behind producing these models is still on schedule, but Ulrich Kranz, team leader of the project, and research and development chief Herbert Diess are looking into contingency plans for Project i."

Not looking like the i cars are as solid as I thought. So, we'll have one Frankenplug car perhaps? GM?

That will work splendidly.
 
cwerdna said:
ENIAC said:
Volkswagen owns Audi and 49% of Porsche, so we shouldn't double count. Nissan and Renault are both run by Carlos Ghosn. There's no way Frankenplug will ever be used in a Renault.
I wouldn't necessarily call the above double counting unless the cars are almost identical (e.g. badge-engineered cars like the Pontiac 6000, Olds Cutlass Ciera, Chevy Celebrity, Buick Century).
The relevant link here isn't style of product, but finances. VW own Audi, that makes the two financially linked in a very significant way. VW has every motivation to influence what Audi does.

If VW thinks electric cars are a waste of time, Audi is very unlikely to produce electric cars; VW won't let them waste the resources on developing one. Any development they will/are doing appears to occur completely on sufferance of government mandates. I'm sure they'd sweep their EV/PHEV programs under the rug if given the chance.

Nissan and Renault are not, AFAIK, financially linked... I get the impression that Ghosn is a shrewd enough businessman to take each company in completely different directions if maximizing the success of each depended on it, so there's no guarantee that Renault won't use frankenplug just because Nissan uses CHAdeMO.
=Smidge=
 
Smidge204 said:
Nissan and Renault are not, AFAIK, financially linked... I get the impression that Ghosn is a shrewd enough businessman to take each company in completely different directions if maximizing the success of each depended on it, so there's no guarantee that Renault won't use frankenplug just because Nissan uses CHAdeMO.
=Smidge=
Renault is the one who bailed out Nissan from near bankruptcy in 1999. They have considerable ownership stakes in each other. From http://www.renault.com/en/groupe/l-alliance-renault-nissan/pages/fonctionnement-et-structure.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:
Renault holds a 43.4% stake in Nissan, while Nissan holds 15% of Renault shares. Each company has a direct interest in the results of its partner.
http://www.titantalk.com/forums/nissan-titan-news/21966-nissan-ceo-making-superstar.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some more background info. Unfortunately, the great graphs that were part of the story when it was first on detnews.com aren't there. It showed how badly Nissan was floundering back then vs. what Ghosn pulled off.
 
cwerdna said:
Renault is the one who bailed out Nissan from near bankruptcy in 1999. They have considerable ownership stakes in each other.
Welp, I stand corrected then!
=Smidge=
 
Yes, only token SAE DC port vehicle sales in the US for at least the next few years, by which time Nissan,/Mitsu should have hundreds of thousands of DC capable BEVs on American roads.

Spark EV:

A conversion of the decade-old-cheapest-ICEV-in-GM's-worldwide-production.

A good thing they plan to build only a few thousand a year (if they can sell that many) as if they put these BEV fright pigs on the road in significant numbers, it would probably do for BEVs, what GM diesel production 30 years ago, did to future diesel sales in the US.

...“The Spark EV will be sold in limited quantities in select U.S. and global markets starting in 2013 (as a 2014 model), including California,” Fox said. “We have not announced any additional markets beyond California and have not said exactly when in 2013 they will be available...

I hope GM at least figure out the port is in the wrong place, before they begin production, see the image below:

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/chevrolet-spark-ev-will-be-made-south-korea-43108.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nothing they can do about the limited cargo area (on a ICEV vehicle with a very cramped interior to begin with) and poor weight distribution, the rear battery location will cause.

The i3:

Looks like a much more promising BEV/BEVx, though probably too pricey for its size, to result in large numbers of sales. Ironically, if it has the range extender option, the need for a DC port is greatly reduced.

However, it looks like the ARB may effectively ban the i3 range-extender in California, by not allowing it under their BEVx definition. IMO, This may turn out to be an important factor in BMW's decision, whether to ever sell this Car in the US, at all.

2. engine operation cannot occur until the battery charge has been depleted to the charge-sustaining lower limit;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847&hilit=range+extended&start=170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Frankenplug for the USA, but the Mennkenstein plug for Europe, right?

I just read a post that the Euro-version would/might use CAN communication.
Might that be correct???

I heard that the FCC has banned some kind of "communication
over power lines" because the radiated frequencies significantly
polluted the High Frequency airwaves.

But, the SAE L3 Standard might be intended to be "flakey" in real-life
operation, just to give Fast/Quick Charging a bad reputation and
slow down EVs by 20 to 50 years.
 
ElectricVehicle said:
You don't see GM trying to standardize 87/89/92 Octane Gasoline and Diesel into a single fuel.
Nor lobbying for the government to close down "non-standard" gas stations until the Combo-fuel vehicles hit the road in 2017.
A pragmatic interpretation may be that the compliance only car makers are using this to deliberately sabotage car makers that have put over 20,000 Electric Vehicles on the road, while the compliance car companies are just beginning to sell their first units that con't even have a DC Fast Charge port - or an upgrade path to one...
Professional lobbyists are experts at convincing naive lawmakers that black is white (e.g. Betsy Butler and AB475) and at making contributions right up to that fuzzy line that divides advocacy from bribery. EV drivers with only email campaigns will lose the politics every time unless we have an effective lobby of our own. Plugin America, where are you?
 
walterbays said:
EV drivers with only email campaigns will lose the politics every time unless we have an effective lobby of our own. Plugin America, where are you?

I would not bet money which side they may fall on. I suspect some neutral position, which is a win for GM, since lawmakers looking for independent consultation won't get a push back from PIA.

Again, just my speculation based on the fact that many Tesla guys on their forums are openly rooting for GM with the thought that the Frankenplug protocol (non CAN) will somehow be compatible with the Tesla DC charger protocol. They know ChadeMo will not be "as easy". Certainly, there are current and wannabe Tesla owners at PIA.

As they say, "all politics are local".
 
TonyWilliams said:
"And while BMW itself hasn’t run into any production or development snags in its i3 and i8 models, electric cars have not been as well-received as BMW had hoped, especially worldwide. As of right now, the engineering and tooling work behind producing these models is still on schedule, but Ulrich Kranz, team leader of the project, and research and development chief Herbert Diess are looking into contingency plans for Project i."
Not looking like the i cars are as solid as I thought. So, we'll have one Frankenplug car perhaps? GM?
That will work splendidly.
Looks like Tom M cleared it up with some "inside" information and the i3s are a solid go ahead.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=200921#p200921" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TomMoloughney said:
<snip>In fact they are beginning to expand the program now, adding people and beginning the marketing campaign for the i3. Look in Times Square, you'll now see two huge billboards of the i3 that went up about two weeks ago. Then last week BMW announced a world tour to display the i3/i8 take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pglJXXKOiKE&feature=g-all-u" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The North American Headquarters (Woodcliff Lake, NJ) is now under construction to build out a huge service center that will only work on their electric vehicles - I was there for a tour recently and they are probably dedicating 8,000 Sq Ft just for the i cars. One room had every kind of EVSE manufactured (about 20 of them) all lined up to test the compatibility and investigate any errors in the charging process. <snip>
 
garygid said:
I heard that the FCC has banned some kind of "communication
over power lines" because the radiated frequencies significantly
polluted the High Frequency airwaves.

To be clear, what Gary here is referring to is called broadband over power lines, or BPL. It uses RF riding on top of the 60 Hz waveform to do internet using existing structure. It polluted HF and low VHF frequencies (1.8 MHz to 80 MHz) but only offered speeds of ~2mbs which is on par with low end DSL. Ham radio operators ended up suing the FCC on interference issues and won. This, combined with the slow speeds compared to existing technologies (including fast DSL, Cable, and Cellular), killed BPL in the United States.

Power line carrier technology is similar, but lower frequency at approximately 200-500 KHz.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_carrier_communication, and http://standards.sae.org/wip/j2931/1

Jeremy
 
scottf200 said:
TonyWilliams said:
General Motors - Spark, Fall 2013 / Spring 2014, again, like BMW, no real specifics about DC fast charging or whether it will be equipped as standard, or optional.

Jay Cole InsideEVs:
Said to begin production in January of 2013, GM spokesman Kevin Kelly said the Spark EV will offer the new Combined Charging System on board when production does begin, making it the first announced new electric offering to thrown down the challenge to CHAdeMO.
Karla Sanchez Motortrend:
GM spokesman Kevin Kelly says it all depends. “It varies on battery chemistry design and capabilities, but some batteries can be quick-charged multiple times.” Kelly also noted the upcoming Chevrolet Spark EV will be able to handle fast charging and work with the shared system.

The Combined Charging System
is projected to be available by the end of this year while vehicles compatible with the technology should become available in 2013. All automakers involved currently have vehicles in development that will be compatible with the system.
So, it sounds like there are only two or three so far w/unknown quantities: GM Spark EV and BMW i3/i8.

The rest are supposedly all in development, with even more unknowns. It'll be interesting to see how much this picture changes when we hit the end of 2012.
 
Back
Top