Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid

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evnow

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2012 is going to be a Plug-In Year. Hot on the heels of Fusion Energi announcement comes the Accord PHEV announcement.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/10/2013-honda-accord-coupe-concept-detroit-2012/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What's really interesting, though, is that the 2013 model marks the return of the Accord Hybrid – a vehicle that died after the 2007 model year. This time, however, the Accord will use an all-new two-motor plug-in hybrid system with three drive modes – all-electric, gasoline-electric and "direct-drive" – with a 6-kWh lithium-ion battery and a 120-kilowatt electric motor mated to a 2.0-liter Atkinson-cycle inline four-cylinder engine. Honda says that the Accord Plug-In will have a pure electric range of 10-15 miles with a top speed of 62 miles per hour, and that recharging the battery will take less than four hours with a 120-volt charger, or less than 1.5 hours with a 240-volt setup. Not bad, Honda.

Honda needs to learn how to make these announcements better. Even I nearly missed it (except for a thread in PC).

Still missing,
- Camry PHEV (they will start considering it this year, talk about it next year and finally produce it in 2020)
- Altima PHEV (rumored for next year)

A short driving test by Brad.

http://www.plugincars.com/first-drive-honda-plug-hybrid-could-beat-volt-and-prius-110828.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Five minutes is not a lot of time to experience a car. For about four of those minutes I was trying to figure out when the gas engine was or wasn’t on. I started my drive in all-electric mode. When I eased up to 35 miles per hour, it was still purely electric. From there, I stomped on the accelerator and detected a very slight vibration from the 2.0-liter gas engine—but within a few seconds, it was quiet again as I continued to accelerate with more restraint. Is it on? Is it off? Except for a full throttle-down take-off from low speed to max speed—as if ramping up to a highway—I couldn’t tell.

The driving experience of the Honda two-motor plug-in hybrid system reminded me of the Ford Fusion Hybrid’s smooth transition from gas to electric and back. Perhaps the key is Honda PHEV’s efficient 2.0-liter gas engine, just big enough to rev at relatively lower RPMs to remain quiet (with little vibration)—compared to the Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid’s slightly smaller 1.8-liter engine that comes on with an unmistakable rumble.
 
Apparently coming in 2013 as a 2014 model.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-57504624-48/2014-honda-accord-plug-in-hybrid-preview/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Honda fits a 6.7 kilowatt-hour lithium ion battery pack in the trunk, just behind the rear seats. It takes up a good portion of the trunk space, but it also can drive the car under pure electric power for 10 to 15 miles, according to Honda. Total range is over 500 miles, when taking into account a full tank of gas. A standard electric car charging port on the front left fender lets the battery be recharged in under 3 hours from a 110-volt source, and less than an hour from a 240-volt source.
 
TomT said:
I hope it is not as big a piece of manure as their hybrids have been to date...
The 1st gen Insight is still the mileage king.

Unfortunately, their NiMH based hybrids (which is most of them) seem to have poor battery longevity and a poor BMS. One Priuschatter went into detail at http://priuschat.com/threads/salvage-traction-battery.89071/#post-1252078" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
 
Some strange choices. I'd think you dont even need as big as 2-liter engine, especially not a 2 liter 4 cylinder, if you are mating with the electric drive. Car makers need to really ditch the old school get get the full benefits of hybrid.
 
Ogi said:
Some strange choices. I'd think you dont even need as big as 2-liter engine, especially not a 2 liter 4 cylinder, if you are mating with the electric drive. Car makers need to really ditch the old school get get the full benefits of hybrid.
Why so strange? The AER of the PHEV HAH is pretty limited. A 2L 4 is already smaller (and weaker) than the 2.4L 4 in the regular Accord (http://green.autoblog.com/2012/09/05/2013-honda-accord-hits-36-mpg-highway/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

I don't know about the '13 Accord, but the '12 Accord sedan and the model years in its generation were already EPA classified as large cars (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31789" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and aren't that light (http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx?group=exterior" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). I don't have the curb weight figures on the PHEV but I'd say acceleration would be kinda slow if they went w/a significantly weaker engine. http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2012/09/05/048544-all-new-2013-honda-accord-brings-remarkable-levels-luxury-agility.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; shows curb weights on the regular versions.
 
They sell cars that size in Europe with 4 cylinder engines under 2 liters and there is no crisis about it. You dont need 185 bhp or even 160 to run that car. Theres a lot of horses - and emissions - wasted in there. You're not going to get emissions down, which is the point of the electric drive, unless they use the electric as an opportunity to get smaller ICE engines in the mix.
 
Ogi said:
They sell cars that size in Europe with 4 cylinder engines under 2 liters and there is no crisis about it. You dont need 185 bhp or even 160 to run that car. Theres a lot of horses - and emissions - wasted in there. You're not going to get emissions down, which is the point of the electric drive, unless they use the electric as an opportunity to get smaller ICE engines in the mix.
But most of us on MNL don't live in Europe. The American and European car market is very different, as are fuel prices (w/European gas prices being 2x that of the US, in some countries). In the US, we don't have taxes based upon engine displacement (than some European countries). In countries where engine displacement dictates taxes, some engines are produced w/certain displacements just to be at the boundary of one tax bracket and not into the text.

As evidenced by most of the vehicles I see running around, esp. too large a % of battering ram of death class SUVs running around being driven solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers w/massive V8 engines and combined mileage in the teens, I'd say most Americans couldn't care less about emissions.
evnow said:
Ogi said:
You dont need 185 bhp or even 160 to run that car.
But, you need more "power" to sell the car. Bigger is always better in the US.
Yep. The problem is that if a car is too underpowered, it'll be significantly slower in acceleration and potentially thrashier too (high NVH due to need to rev high). Magazines will note this in comparisons as will potential buyers.

Example 4 cylinder medium sized family sedan hp figures and displacement:
'12 Altima: 2.5L 175 hp
'13 Altima: 2.5L 182 hp
'13 Malibu: 2.5L 197 hp
'13 Malibu Eco (eAssist): 2.4L 182 hp
'12 Camry: 2.5L 178 hp
'12 Camry Hybrid: 2.5L 200 hp

If most Americans actually cared about emissions and/or gas were $8+/gallon, you'd see them be more willing to demand more efficient cars (== lower CO2 emissions) and being willing to "sacrifice" by going to weaker, smaller displacement engines.

You can sorta blame Nissan for a hp arms race, at least in the past. Nissan always seemed to have a little more power than everyone else. Example: The '02 Altima had a class leading 175 hp 2.5L 4. Everyone else was 10-20 hp less. It offered a 240 hp 3.5L V6 (V6 for the first time) and 255 hp on the 02 Maxima, when everyone else was in the 190s or ~200 hp range.

This held true for other vehicles.
 
cwerdna said:
Ogi said:
As evidenced by most of the vehicles I see running around, esp. too large a % of battering ram of death class SUVs running around being driven solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers w/massive V8 engines and combined mileage in the teens, I'd say most Americans couldn't care less about emissions...If most Americans actually cared about emissions and/or gas were $8+/gallon, you'd see them be more willing to demand more efficient cars (== lower CO2 emissions) and being willing to "sacrifice" by going to weaker, smaller displacement engines....
No doubt, but if a given person does not care about emissions or gas prices, then why should a carmaker be banking on them to buy their hybrid car model, as opposed to one with just gas?
 
Ogi said:
cwerdna said:
Ogi said:
As evidenced by most of the vehicles I see running around, esp. too large a % of battering ram of death class SUVs running around being driven solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers w/massive V8 engines and combined mileage in the teens, I'd say most Americans couldn't care less about emissions...If most Americans actually cared about emissions and/or gas were $8+/gallon, you'd see them be more willing to demand more efficient cars (== lower CO2 emissions) and being willing to "sacrifice" by going to weaker, smaller displacement engines....
No doubt, but if a given person does not care about emissions or gas prices, then why should a carmaker be banking on them to buy their hybrid car model, as opposed to one with just gas?
FWIW, Honda's hybrid sales are puny. For the PHEV Acord, I can think of a number of reasons: marketing, CA compliance (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1068832_electric-cars-some-are-real-most-are-only-compliance-cars--we-name-names" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and getting a boost on their CAFE numbers.

OTOH, I'm unclear if PHEVs help w/CA compliance. http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevprog.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; does mention PHEVs.
 
ogi, note that this is an atkinson cycle engine.. so about 30% lower in power than a regular gas engine, but as a reward it has near-diesel like efficiency at much lower cost. Unless Honda is doing some trickery with the valves.
 
What I don't understand is why Honda is splitting its focus between the hybrid and the Fit EV. It seems like a conservative campaign but a costly one over the long haul. Even providing the Fit EV in very limited markets would have to cost them a chunk of change, right? Looks like they're trying to serve two masters.
 
The Honda Accord Plug-In actually has a mode to recharge the battery from the gas engine like a non-plugin hybrid. It is called "HV Charge". For the Volt it clearly goes against the stated goals of using cheaper grid watts vs gas generated watts (GM presentations say 1/5 or 1/6 cost I think). In the Volt you can sort of do this if you mis-use "Mountain Mode" and run the SOC below 40% and then use MM to charge it back up to 40%. ICE is "loud" in that case because the car thinks you forgot to hit MM and you are coming up on a mountain quickly (yes personification)

This will find various references: https://www.google.com/search?&q="hv+charge"+honda+accord

HV Charge mode requires a two-second push on the mode button to engage. With the battery depleted, it will run the engine at all times to recharge the battery. Charge times depend more on time than mileage. Unless you're driving hard, the engine should be able to charge the battery in under an hour. But running the gas engine to charge the batteries defeats one of the purposes of a hybrid, which is to burn less fuel. (We didn't have a chance to measure fuel economy.)
 
AutoBlog has a first drive review and seems to be pretty impressed with it:

2014 Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid - The Accord Gets Friendly With A Volt-esque Powertrain
AutoBlog said:
The Accord Plug-In Hybrid takes some cues from the Fit EV (Honda is using the same home-charging partner, Leviton, for example, and the 6.6-kWh charger is the same in both vehicles), but we hope the Accord's sales figures will not be just as miniscule. The answer to that question will be based, in part, on the Accord PHEV's price (again, stay tuned for LA) and how it compares to other plug-in hybrids, like the Volt, Prius Plug-In and Ford C-Max Energi. Whoever wants a normal-looking alternative to those alternatives will do well to take a look at what Honda's done here. After all, you don't have to understand it to drive it.

Depending on the price and HV drive efficiency, it will definitely be competitive with the Prius.

IMO the front grille is really cartoonish looking (look at the size of that Honda badge!) - the wheels look rather cheap as well. Getting the pack up to 10 kWh from 6.7 kWh for more EV range would make it a lot more appealing as well.
 
2014 Honda Plug-In Hybrid Accord is CARB's first SULEV20 gas car:
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/12/27/2014-honda-plug-in-hybrid-accord-is-carbs-first-sulev20-gas-car/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Anybody seen one of these yet?

http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-plug-in/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Specs say 13 miles EV range.
 
asinclair said:
Also, $39K seems a bit steep when you can get a Volt for the same $.
More competition the better. If a person is eligible for the tax credit then the difference is greater:
* $7,500 off of the Volt so ~$31.6 K (16.5 kWh & 38 EV miles)
* $3,334 off of the Accord ~$36.4 K (6.7 kWh & 13 EV miles)
 
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