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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:52 am 
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kubel wrote:
the LEAF is inferior to the Focus when it comes to overall quality. I'm surprised anyone would dispute this. Though you didn't necessarily dispute this- you just prejudged me.


Since I have no quality issues with the LEAF, it's hard to qualify how a converted Focus has higher "quality". You might be confusing that with features, of which I'd like to have a leather steering wheel. Focus has it, LEAF does not. That's not quality; that's a feature.

So, officially, I dispute your assertion.


Quote:
But ChaDeMo is dead. I'm not sure how you can ignore this. Automakers want one place to plug in. It's easier for everyone that way. I'm not sure why the Japanese would want two places to plug in. Probably because they had no other choice with no standard being made yet. I commend Nissan for pioneering the idea and doing what was necessary to make it happen with no standard being made yet, but I don't think fanboys should discourage a better solution.


Now, fanboy isn't something I get called everyday!!! Again, I disagree with each of your assertions. ChaDeMo is hardly dead; there will be hundreds of them in the USA, in addition to maybe thousands in the world before a single SAE combo plug is installed anywhere. There will be tens of thousands of cars that use ChaDeMo when SAE anything DC shows up. There currently are ZERO cars anywhere in the world using the SAE frankenplug. So, your statement is blatantly wrong.

Sure, you could be puffing our chest out in that special 'mercian way, and predicting that ChaDeMo is a future Betamax, superior in both quality and engineering, but a failure in a consumer market that equated VHS with VCR, so for that, we'll just have to see. Folks from your special area of the world underestimated the Japanese many, many times. So, back to fanboy. Your blind allegiance to vapor ware and unproven technology versus the already established one seems to me to be the very definition of fanboy.

The "two places to plug in" is a bit of a stretch. I have exactly one place to plug in, properly placed on the front of the car. There are two sockets there. I don't use two at once, nor would there be a time when I would. Would there be an advantage to have the sockets combined for me, the end user? No, none at all. Is there an advantage to the manufacturer to install a frankenplug in a gasoline fuel filler door? They seem to think so, and obviously for car conversions like a Focus, there is probably an advantage to them (but, as we already know, the Focus does not take advantage of this advantage).

Quote:
Liquid thermal management is superior to air. The FFE will not only provide marginally better range in moderate temperatures, but I have a feeling it will provide substantially better range than the LEAF in winter conditions. They aren't merely comparable and there is no slight advantage. The FFE is the clear winner. Of course, you're paying for it if you get a FFE.


I suspect the simplicity of no heating / cooling LEAF battery will give way to liquid temperature control, or some non-liquid control, much like few cars have adopted the air cooled engines used on piston airplanes, Porsches and Volkswagens.

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Warm and cold weather range. Energy efficiency. Quality. Audio. Performance.


Somewhat to perhaps significantly, marginally, doubtful, probably, perhaps.

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Last edited by TonyWilliams on Tue May 08, 2012 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:08 am 
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garsh wrote:
kubel wrote:
Liquid thermal management is superior to air.
That particular assertion remains to be seen. In theory, LTM should do a much better job of keeping the batteries at their optimum operating temperature. But in practice, it's also a more complicated system, with more things that can go wrong. I would also think that it should be much easier to replace bad cells in a Leaf battery pack than in one where the cells are encased in liquid.


you are kidding right? your statement of the obvious is a value decision we all make and few decide to "rough it" over enjoying new technology. i still know people who have landline phones, and use their cellphone for nothing but making and receiving calls and yes, they can charge their phone twice a week and never worry about a dead battery...then there is the "other" 295 million of us.

yesterday, the temperature was 76º in Puget Sound and we did what everyone does who has not seen such a day in months, we were out and cruising. now, in my Leaf; the same one that gets about 4.4 to 4.7 miles per Kilowatt, i averaged 5.6 miles per K.

it was not due to better driving, better routes, or the phase of the Moon. it all had to do with temperature.

now, since there is no Focus around and all we have to go on is Ford's word, it still remains to be seen whether Ford's battery management system is a viable one. i suspect that there will be much less range degradation in winter (keep in mind, other outside forces play a part like denser cold air, rolling resistance, etc) in the Focus and what part of the expense for that additional management is in the sticker remains to be seen.

but there is 3 active cooling loops for each component along with cabin cooling so that is redundancy X 3. a single segmented heating loop that does control battery pack temps as well. how much overhead this will cause may easily be outweighed by the range benefit.

now, all this might be water under the bridge. Nissan has announced a better heater for the 2013 which is supposed to be like 70% better. i have seen no details on how they plan to do this but this might put the Leaf back to near even performance on the Focus. either way, it seems that each manufacturer is pushing Nissan to be better. i am all for that

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:20 am 
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its clear fast Dc charging raises pack temps and a car with a thermal mgt system capable of cooling the pack during and after fast DC charge will have an advantage in warm weather with multiple fast DC charges in a day trip

is there any car that has both fast charge port and active thermal mgt?

imev ?

all the others have one or the other

fast DC port , but no thermal mgt = Leaf

thermal mgt but no DC port = volt, focus,bmw

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Roadsters charge pretty quickly and have active thermal management but it's not really fast in relation to capacity.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:53 am 
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coolfilmaker wrote:
Roadsters charge pretty quickly and have active thermal management but it's not really fast in relation to capacity.


19kW, max allowed by the current J1772 spec. 20kW if you round up, but basically 240VAC at 80A or so. I have a ClipperCreek CS100 so I can charge any EV up to that rate. Obviously not the LEAF or Focus that fast but a Model S with the $10,000 charger upgrade, yep, that'd work.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:30 pm 
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TonyWilliams wrote:
There currently are ZERO cars anywhere in the world using the SAE frankenplug. So, your statement is blatantly wrong.


Image

There is at least one car with it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:54 pm 
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coolfilmaker wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
There currently are ZERO cars anywhere in the world using the SAE frankenplug. So, your statement is blatantly wrong.


Image

There is at least one car with it.


The pins in this mockup are clearly plastic, what I like to call "movie magic".

There will be 200,000+ cars on the road with Chademo connectors on them and 1000's of Chademo chargers before the very first SAE FC equipped car will be sold. The manufactures of QC see that as well, there are many pictures from EVS26 with QC stations with both Chademo and SAE FC on the same charging station. So whatever standard wins, manufactures will be ready and everyone wins.

Ford's numbers on the FFE as far as production goes isn't that impressive. 10,000 a year is what Ford is planning. Nissan will make that many Leafs every 24 days in Smyrna by the end of this year/first of next year.

As to which car is best? I think both are good, but the FFE is more $ and will be harder to come by than the Leaf. Either way, don't let that stop anyone from buying an EV. Even having a choice of what EV to buy is a small miracle.

We live in amazing times...

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Quote:
We live in amazing times...


.. except the falling gas prices are like getting back to old dull times

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:10 pm 
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mkjayakumar wrote:
Quote:
We live in amazing times...


.. except the falling gas prices are like getting back to old dull times


They won't stay down for long, they ALWAYS go up.

My magical crystal ball predicts this about the time SAE DC FC cars are available:

Image

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:10 pm 
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TurboFroggy wrote:
coolfilmaker wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
There currently are ZERO cars anywhere in the world using the SAE frankenplug. So, your statement is blatantly wrong.




There is at least one car with it.


The pins in this mockup are clearly plastic, what I like to call "movie magic".



No movie magic. Actually this is a picture of an SAE DC combo charging prototype installed in a BMW ActiveE and displayed at the recent EVS26 exhibit in Los Angeles. I took a similar picture myself. The car had a special piece of equipment in the trunk that connected the exterior charging receptacle to the battery pack, just for the demo, and we were told that it was actually charging and the BMW folks had to run the air conditioning constantly in the car in order to bleed off power so that the QC would be able to charge. See this thread about EVS26: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5806&start=40

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