GCR: VW ID 3 bows at Frankfurt

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GRA

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https://www.greencarreports.com/new...kfurt-heads-for-european-deliveries-next-year


Golf-sized, and looks nice. We won't get it, but the battery options (45/58/77 kWh usable, 48/62/82 total) will undoubtedly make it here in one of the other cars to be built on the MEB platform. AC charging up to 11k, with DC up to 125 kW (gee, do you suppose that number had anything to do with EA's pricing tiers?), but the base car will have 7.2 kW AC/50kW DC, with 100kW DC optional. First deliveries scheduled for mid-2020, which is supposed to be shortly before we get a somewhat bigger crossover (ID. Crozz) on the MEB platform.

Per this article at IEVS: https://insideevs.com/news/369758/vw-id3-electric-car-debuts-range-342-miles/, Range (WLTP) with the various packs is 205/261/342 miles (330/420/550 km).
 
I like it, looks a bit like a golf which I have always liked. I have found the 40 kWh Leaf to be more than enough range for me so that base model might be a really nice option if the $7500 federal credit is still available by the time it comes to the U.S. market.
 
As U.S. drivers tend to drive further, I suspect they may not bring the 45 kWh version here, just as the Korean marques aren't bringing the smaller battery packs to the U.S.
 
I think it looks like a very compelling car, but the best part is the range of options they are proposing. On the base model, I like how it is an option to upgrade from 50 to 100kW charging, and the three battery sizes seem sensibly chosen. Then there is the panoramic sunroof vs metal roof, and optional HUD, and many other features that suggest they really are intending to make a lot of these.
 
It will be interesting to see how much traction this gets. To me, it feels like the first time an established car manufacturer is really getting behind EV's and it could be a game changer. If nothing else, having VW bet the farm on EV's should help support the industry in general and make the EV universe more legitimate in the eyes of many.
 
GRA said:
... We won't get it, but the battery options (45/58/77 kWh usable, 48/62/82 total) will undoubtedly make it here in one of the other cars to be built on the MEB platform...
Click to expand...

Volkswagen promises to keep the price for the entry-level version below €30k in Germany, which translates to roughly $33.3k at the current rates.

So if the base model has a 45-kWh battery for a range of up to 205 miles WLTP (~160 miles EPA), that places it in the same class as the 40 kWh battery ~150 mile range EPA non-ePlus Nissan Leaf starting at $29,990 MSRP.

On another board it is reported that the Euro price is after tax, so pretax is €25.21k. About $27.9k.

Granted the VW has several specs that are otherwise superior, but the base Leaf can also be had for substantially below MSRP before government incentives. Also understood is that this VW won't sell here in the States and we would have to compare Leaf prices to ID 3 in the same markets they are sold.
 
Finally, it looks like EV revolution is about to get started. This is the first true affordable mass production EV on the market with ICE competitive specs. Would be interesting to see US version of ID.4 (cross). VW was able to negotiate battery prices below $100/kWh - this is critical threshold that allows affordable EV to become a reality. This imply very high volume, meaning they would build/sell as many EV as they can to keep battery prices down, so US is going to get those affordable EV variants soon as well, possibly ID.4 would be early next year.
 
GRA said:
with DC up to 125 kW (gee, do you suppose that number had anything to do with EA's pricing tiers?)
Click to expand...
Since it is not coming to the US, I don't know why they would have considered EA's pricing tiers.
 
Leaf15 said:
Finally, it looks like EV revolution is about to get started. This is the first true affordable mass production EV on the market with ICE competitive specs. Would be interesting to see US version of ID.4 (cross). VW was able to negotiate battery prices below $100/kWh - this is critical threshold that allows affordable EV to become a reality. This imply very high volume, meaning they would build/sell as many EV as they can to keep battery prices down, so US is going to get those affordable EV variants soon as well, possibly ID.4 would be early next year.
Click to expand...

what is their plan to keep up with demand?

Isn't part of their problem with Kia and Hyundai they just can't get enough batteries?
 
jlv said:
GRA said:
with DC up to 125 kW (gee, do you suppose that number had anything to do with EA's pricing tiers?)
Click to expand...
Since it is not coming to the US, I don't know why they would have considered EA's pricing tiers.
Click to expand...


For the simple reason that the equipment to be used in many if not all of the other cars on the same platform, which will come here, will be the same. Mass production at the lowest price means you use as much of the same equipment on as many models as you can, which also minimizes the development costs.
 
danrjones said:
what is their plan to keep up with demand?

Isn't part of their problem with Kia and Hyundai they just can't get enough batteries?
Click to expand...

They have contracts with about 5 biggest EV batteries producers and also went 50/50 with Northvolt new $1B factory in Germany will get online in 23/24 at 16 GWh annually. Hyundai is not very big player and only gets battery from 1 source - LG, but Hyundai already went from #15 to #5 EV manufacturer raring in 1 year after Kona/Niro start.
 
GRA said:
Mass production at the lowest price means you use as much of the same equipment on as many models as you can, which also minimizes the development costs.
Click to expand...

VW is famous for this and it has both benefits and drawbacks. The benefits are the obvious economy of scale and inter-changeability of parts. The draw backs are the inter-changed parts don't always have the mounting bolts, etc in the optimal place. It often occurs that working on a VW would be soooo much easier if the bolts were oriented in a different direction, etc. But when you realize the part is used on 4 different engines in 5 different car types it is understandable why things are built the way they are.

Hopefully with EV's it will be less cumbersome.
 
goldbrick said:
It will be interesting to see how much traction this gets. To me, it feels like the first time an established car manufacturer is really getting behind EV's and it could be a game changer. If nothing else, having VW bet the farm on EV's should help support the industry in general and make the EV universe more legitimate in the eyes of many.
Click to expand...


Agreed. Nissan threw away the first mover advantage they had. Depending on price and size, the biggest battery version of the ID.4 could (marginally) meet my requirements for in-state trips for a few years, and might be worth leasing. A true multi-state road trip vehicle will need 100+ kWh usable plus 250+kW charging, but I suspect we're still at least five years away from having one with those specs at a mass market price.
 
For me a true ice replacement would need about 500 miles of range. Because 80% gives you 400, add in mountains and freeway speeds, and the fact most will not be comfortable taking it down to 5%. So 20 to 80% with freeway speeds and mountains must give me a range of around 250 to 275 miles. I do not want to stop more than that on a road trip. And I agree 250+ charging speeds. The good news is if the battery is large enough that 80 or even 70% is your 100%, you charge a lot faster.

And affordable.
 
danrjones said:
For me a true ice replacement would need about 500 miles of range. Because 80% gives you 400, add in mountains and freeway speeds, and the fact most will not be comfortable taking it down to 5%. So 20 to 80% with freeway speeds and mountains must give me a range of around 250 to 275 miles. I do not want to stop more than that on a road trip. And I agree 250+ charging speeds. The good news is if the battery is large enough that 80 or even 70% is your 100%, you charge a lot faster.

And affordable.
Click to expand...


Seems like we're in more or less complete agreement on what's needed for full ICE replacement. I'd even say 600 miles wouldn't be amiss, to allow for degradation and HVAC use. For full replacement I want at least four hours at 75 mph (80 mph preferred) plus at least a 30 mile reserve at the same speed with all the allowances as above, for at least 12 and preferably 15 or better yet 20 years. As a battery with that kind of longevity seems unlikely, I'm a big believer in battery leasing to keep the overall size/weight down. Let the leasing company worry about degradation.

If anyone comes up with a battery that will allow the full capacity (minus reserve) to be routinely used without hastening degradation, and which will last the car's lifetime, the total range can be reduced accordingly. And range can be traded off against charging speed to some extent, but as charging speeds that would replicate liquid/gaseous fuel energy replenishment times (<=5 min. to provide above range, which would require at least 1,200 kW) aren't likely anytime soon if ever, range is more critical. I don't mind stopping for 30-40 minutes every four hours or more as I can combine that with eating, but I'm not going to want to do that every two hours (or less) as is currently the case under those conditions. At least, it is in a BEV at an affordable price.
 

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