cwerdna
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Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:27 am


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LeftieBiker
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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:51 am

Great. Two companies who have dragged their feet on BEV development (especially batteries) will now work together on a BEV. I can already hear all of the "You first - we insist" meetings...
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GRA
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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:51 pm

Toyota hasn't dragged their feet on batteries, they've put enormous resources into developing solid-state batteries, which they feel have the necessary characteristics to make mass-market BEVs mainstream without gov't subsidies and mandates. I tend to agree.

As for Subaru, they aren't big enough to do this on their own, and their previous collaboration with Toyota on the BRZ/FR-S worked out pretty well for both companies. I consider the Crosstrek PHEV less successful owing to its limited AER, but that's due more to Subaru's choice to keep their existing mechanical AWD set-up which, it should be noted, makes the car much better in low traction conditions than Toyota's part-time electric AWD system. Trade-offs, trade-offs. Given Subaru's customer demographic (which is to say, people with needs like mine*), a BEV from them makes no sense unless until both the car's range/charging speed and the necessary infrastructure to allow access to remote areas are in place - only a PHEV rather than a BEV makes any sense until those issues are resolved, and they're only starting to be now.


*This is from 2010, but much the same comments apply today:
Subaru's secret is that it understands the customers who drive its cars and has gotten smarter and more aggressive about reaching out to new ones who would feel at home as part of that clan. The company has the type of customer base that's particularly attractive to carmakers. The average household income of a Subaru owner is $88,000, the same as Honda Motor and $10,000 more than Toyota, says Alexander Edwards, president of market researcher Strategic Vision. Plus, Subaru buyers are three years younger than the industry average and a quarter more likely to have a college degree.

They are a thrifty lot, traditionally buying less car than they can afford. Some 36 percent pay cash. Subaru has played to that frugal bent by cutting roughly $1,200 from the $26,342 average price of its cars in 2007. Those cuts haven't killed profit margins because the lower prices allowed Subaru to reduce sales incentives and rebates on its cars substantially. Currently, the company gives about $1,333 per vehicle in incentives — the lowest level of any major car brand, says Thomas Doll, chief operating officer. That's almost half the $2,310 in incentives Toyota currently gives its buyers.

Much of the automaker's marketing focuses on cementing its connection to customers. Subaru's research shows them to be an eco-friendly bunch who value the freedom to go where they want, when they want. Unlike luxury car buyers, Subaruers are "customers who are not buying things, but experiences," says Chief Marketing Officer Tim Mahoney. That meshes nicely with Subaru's all-four-wheel-drive lineup, showcased by TV ads that star one of its cars caked with road grit, being applauded by admiring spectators on a suburban Main Street.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/37274797/ns/business-us_business/t/subaru-barrels-through-recession/#.XPnCCVF97IU
Last edited by GRA on Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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LeftieBiker
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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:56 pm

Unless Toyota has a solid state battery ready to go, then they are essentially foot-dragging, as with hydrogen.
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cwerdna
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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:09 pm

FWIW, for the US market, Toyota has done some compliance EVs like the gen 1 Rav4 EV, the (Tesla-powered gen 2) Rav4 EV and eQ. I physically saw at least one of https://www.toyota-body.co.jp/english/products/ev.html parked in some short-term rental spot in Japan. Will see if I can find the pics later.

I've test driven the gen 2 Rav4 EV at least once or twice. The first time was at Alt Car Expo 2012, within a few weeks after it went on sale.

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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:46 pm

I know about the compliance EVs. I guess you can say that Toyota was an early leader in EV foot dragging.
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EVDrive
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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:25 pm

Woopie, excuse me while I yawn. I wont hold my breath for these 2 losers to built an EV. They problly forget to add quickcharging like the rav4 ev. 2 companies who consistently trash talk EV's and say lithium batteries are not ready for prime time are now collaberating. It's about time these loser companies except the future is electric. This goes along nicely with the articles today stating that the hydrogen shortage is making Toyota Mirai drivers in norcal miserable.

Toyota has absolutely been dragging their feet on EV's. The gen 2 rav4 ev systems including the motor, inverters, ev control systems and traction batteries were built by Tesla not Toyota. Tesla and Toyota made 2500 of rav4 EVs from 2012-2015 and proclaimed hydrogen was the future and gave up on EVs. Maybe Toyota is realizing hydrogen cars suck compated to EVs and they are uggly looking to boot.
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GRA
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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:05 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Unless Toyota has a solid state battery ready to go, then they are essentially foot-dragging, as with hydrogen.

Toyota's only building BEVs using current batteries because they have to owing to government mandates (particularly in China, the world's largest auto market), not because they think they are suitable for the mass market now. And how can they be foot-dragging with H2 when they've got one of only three production FCEVs on the market, with plans to considerably expand their production? Toyota doesn't work on the "5 years is an eternity" timescale of U.S. auto companies, which is why we have large numbers of HEVs around the world now.

As to another poster's statement that Toyota and Subaru are loser companies, if consistently being either 1st or 2nd in sales worldwide (Toyota) or having increased sales every year for the last decade or so (Subaru) including the recession while being consistently profitable makes them loser companies, then I'd suggest that a recalibration of "loser" is in order. We can only hope that a BEV-only company will someday become that kind of loser.

Now, it may be that solid-state batteries never develop to commercialization, but some kind of battery that offers similar advantages (higher energy density, better cycle life, faster recharging, greater safety) will likely be necessary to completely replace ICEs for all types of trips. ISTM the current ZEV full replacement alternative to ICEs is PHFCEVs, assuming that both fuel cells and H2 costs can be brought down to competitive levels. That way, you get the benefit of a battery pack's higher efficiency for routine local use, while not having to deal with its disadvantages of high weight and slow recharging (or need it to provide heat in winter) for road trips. Something along the lines of the i3 REx, but with enough power from the stack to cruise at say 80 mph while handling hotel loads, enough H2 for at least two but preferably 4+ hours at that speed, and a battery pack with AERs ranging from say 20-50 or maybe 60 miles, although the latter is probably too costly/bulky/heavy to be worthwhile. Plus the necessary fueling and charging infrastructure, of course.
Last edited by GRA on Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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jjeff
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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:20 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Great. Two companies who have dragged their feet on BEV development (especially batteries) will now work together on a BEV. I can already hear all of the "You first - we insist" meetings...

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LeftieBiker
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Re: Toyota and Subaru Agree to Jointly Develop BEV-dedicated Platform and BEV SUV

Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:08 pm

And how can they be foot-dragging with H2 when they've got one of only three production FCEVs on the market, with plans to considerably expand their production?


I'm sure you know this, but for the new people in the crowd: companies like Toyota and Honda are using (subsidized) research into hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as a way to appear to be making progress toward a zero emission fleet, while actually just milking what was always known to be a dead end - at least for cars - for the publicity and government funding. GM has already proven that they can make a viable, long-lived lithium battery pack, but still Toyota, Subaru, et all insist that lithium batteries just aren't ready (unlike hydrogen fuel cells!) to power fleets of cars.
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