GRA
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IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:54 pm

https://insideevs.com/news/347324/vw-ba ... ctric-car/
VW To Guarantee 70% Battery Capacity For 8 Years Or 160,000 km. . . .

The battery pack is expected to last as long as the cars. Because cars are generally used a lot longer than eight years, we assume that the base scenario is to use the original batteries as long as possible, despite gradual capacity fade, to the point when the car is too old/costly to maintain. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:03 pm

Maybe they stopped rust-proofing them again...
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Lothsahn
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:35 pm

Given the replacement cost of the Leaf batteries, this is true of the Leaf too!
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
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KeiJidosha
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:49 pm

GRA wrote:https://insideevs.com/news/347324/vw-ba ... ctric-car/
VW To Guarantee 70% Battery Capacity For 8 Years Or 160,000 km. . . .

The battery pack is expected to last as long as the cars. Because cars are generally used a lot longer than eight years, we assume that the base scenario is to use the original batteries as long as possible, despite gradual capacity fade, to the point when the car is too old/costly to maintain. . . .
I’m surprised to see EV drivers making fun of this warranty. The expense for an EV is front loaded and a long useful service life with low maintenance costs is what makes an EV cost competitive with ICE. The battery is the most expensive part of an EV and early degradation is a risk.

To me it shows some faith in the durability of their battery chemistry and design including thermal management and charging strategy to offer such a capacity warranty.

The LEAF battery capacity experience is not lost on me and has made me hesitant about purchasing an expensive EV.

I have been considering Tesla, Jaguar and Audi only because they offered a similarly useful warranty that would insure the financial viability of the purchase. I am pleased to see EV makers coalescing around this norm.

No such remedy exists for our Ford C-Max Energi that after 45K miles and 5 years has lost more than 50% of its battery capacity. I would think early adopters would welcome a trend toward better battery capacity warranties.
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
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Nubo
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:14 pm

It will be interesting to see VW transition from their long tradition of making press-releases about electric cars, to actually making electric cars.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

SageBrush
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:30 pm

I consider a 30% degradation by year 8 to be piss poor but the thing that is particularly nasty is that an owner may find themselves at that performance well before 8 years. So these companies are really saying that a consumer has to buy a battery capacity 1/0.7 = 1.43x larger than their expected use profile.

So e.g., if a consumer has to have 100 EPA mile range and lives in 4 season climate where a 30% range penalty can be expected during bad weather then the EV range required is ~ 200 miles. An aggressive driver who expends 20% more energy per distance than the EPA test would require an 200/0.8 = 250 miles.

A consumer who wants to road trip at 70 - 75 mph:
150 mile EPA range
30% weather allowance
20% higher speed allowance
30% degradation allowance
> 382 EPA mile range car.

It really does add up for non Tesla EVs, and that is only looking out 8 years.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
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LeftieBiker
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:52 pm

I consider a 30% degradation by year 8 to be piss poor but the thing that is particularly nasty is that an owner may find themselves at that performance well before 8 years. So these companies are really saying that a consumer has to buy a battery capacity 1/0.7 = 1.43x larger than their expected use profile.

So e.g., if a consumer has to have 100 EPA mile range and lives in 4 season climate where a 30% range penalty can be expected during bad weather then the EV range required is ~ 200 miles. An aggressive driver who expends 20% more energy per distance than the EPA test would require an 200/0.8 = 250 miles.
Exactly. When I see the 8 year Leaf capacity warranty happily quoted, I think about having to drive it for maybe 4-5 years with less Winter range than I need, just to restart the process with a new pack. No, thanks.
I’m surprised to see EV drivers making fun of this warranty. The expense for an EV is front loaded and a long useful service life with low maintenance costs is what makes an EV cost competitive with ICE. The battery is the most expensive part of an EV and early degradation is a risk.
Nissan has played enough games with their capacity warranty (including not originally offering one at all) that many of us are a little...skeptical. Also, see above.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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rmay635703
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:17 pm

When they list the warranty in miles on the EV parked for sale in the lot I’ll take a look.

Kms mean nothing here

RonDawg
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Wed May 01, 2019 2:04 pm

The 8 year/100,000 mile battery capacity (70%) warranty is NOT new. My 2015 eGolf has it.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

smkettner
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Wed May 01, 2019 2:15 pm

I expect 20 years and 300,000 miles retaining 80% capacity before "lasts life of the car" statement is used.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

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