"The challenge is to make an electric car do something that gasoline proportions and design can never do."

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edatoakrun

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I'm disappointed that we still must drive BEVs that in terms of design are little more than clumsy imitations of ICEVs.

While this new Merc probably fails the test (IMO) at least there is some evidence in statements by designers that they understand the opportunity.

Mercedes gives itself an electric makeover

When Karl Benz built the first gasoline-powered automobile in 1885, it looked like a horse-drawn carriage without the horses. It would take more than three decades for the shape of vehicles to catch up to the new way of propelling them forward.

Mercedes-Benz design chief Gorden Wagener says electric motors could similarly reshape the way cars look. "The architecture is going to change fundamentally," Wagener says.

At the Paris auto show on Sept. 29, Wagener unveiled the Generation EQ concept, an electric SUV with a range of roughly 480 km (300 miles) as part of a lineup Mercedes will market under a new subbrand, EQ. The first model -- which Mercedes says will be priced to compete with similar cars with traditional engines -- will arrive in 2019...

Standout styling too has not always succeeded. BMW created a new look for its i3 electric city car in 2013, but the quirky design was a factor in the tepid response from buyers. The Model S from Tesla Motors -- with a price tag that can top $110,000 -- has been more successful, last year outselling the $96,600 Mercedes S class in the U.S. But it looks pretty much like other luxury sedans.

"Soon, somebody may take the 'bold pill,' and something completely unique and fabulous will come out," says Howard Guy of Design Q, an automotive design studio that’s worked with Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Ferrari. "The challenge is to make an electric car do something that gasoline proportions and design can never do."...
Click to expand...
http://www.autonews.com/article/20161007/COPY01/310079965/mercedes-gives-itself-an-electric-makeover
 
What gasoline can't do:
1. Ludicrous mode
2. Breath clean air around your car, while it is running
3. Stop sucking in carcinogens at the gas station
4. Stop feeding the terrorists
5. Few moving parts means less maintenance
https://plus.google.com/u/1/+DanielCardenas/posts/YHZygJpydsz
6. Save time by plugging in at home
7. Quiet ride
 
DanCar said:
What gasoline can't do:
1. Ludicrous mode
2. Breath clean air around your car, while it is running
3. Stop sucking in carcinogens at the gas station
4. Stop feeding the terrorists
5. Few moving parts means less maintenance
https://plus.google.com/u/1/+DanielCardenas/posts/YHZygJpydsz
6. Save time by plugging in at home
7. Quiet ride
Click to expand...
Their is no question that BEVs are superior to ICEVs for most purposes.

The question is, why do designers feel the need to make BEVs look so much like those very inferior ICEVs?

And IMO, it is probably mostly due to buyers who actually prefer the horseless buggy approach, and praise BEVs for their design (as exemplified by the Tesla S) merely because they mimic the appearance of the obsolete cars ICEV drivers are accustomed to.
 
Besides BEVs allowing a different design because no front engine requirement, I think driverless will also cause a big design leap. Perhaps in 10 years the ton of safety requirements will no longer be required.
 
DanCar said:
Besides BEVs allowing a different design because no front engine requirement, I think driverless will also cause a big design leap. Perhaps in 10 years the ton of safety requirements will no longer be required.
Click to expand...

I think it will be more like 50 years as it will take that long to get all the cars without the autonomous safety features off the road. As long as those accident prone vehicles are out there, the rest have to have all the airbags and crumple zones etc. to keep the occupants safe when they encounter an old timer.
 
The reason for making EVs so ICE-like is pretty straightforward. In order to sell enough EVs to make money on the venture, they have to find buyers among more than the ' in between EVs right now, or about to stop leasing one' niche. They have to appeal to people who are driving ICE vehicles now, but who want to stop buying gas and smelling exhaust, and who otherwise like cars as they are.
 
The Tesla Model S is of course a fine example of a purpose-built EV that isn't constrained by the limitations of an ICEV. With no need to accommodate an exhaust system, it's able to seat two additional passengers (though children only) in the rear. And with no ICE, there's room for a "frunk" up front. With no need for a transaxle, even in AWD models, there's no center "hump"; consequently, a large backpack can be placed between the front seats, and a middle passenger in the back seat is left with more leg room.

Design-wise, what other distinct features would we like to see in BEVs?
 
abasile said:
...
Design-wise, what other distinct features would we like to see in BEVs?
Click to expand...

+1!
ICE vehicles have changed a fair amount over time.
Companies have tried 3 wheel cars, cars with a single door that was the front of the car, 2 passenger cars, 8 passenger "cars", cars with stretched trunks/hatches, tall cars, short cars, roofless cars.

Beyond what EVs have already done,I am not sure exactly what basic changes to the form of an EV vs ICE you are looking for?

In most cases, form follows function. The function of both the ICE and EV are the same.
For some, it is to move from point A to B along roads.
For others, it is to make a statement.
For others, it is to enjoy the trip.

People buy cars for a mix of the above reasons.
I don't see this changing, thus I don't see the design of a vehicle changing radically.
 
I agree any change will be slow. We still need crumple zones especially in the front.
Vehicle just needs seats for the people and the right space for any payload.
Still need four wheels for stability and an aerodynamic cover.
What is going to depart from what ICE vehicle needs?
 
smkettner said:
I agree any change will be slow...What is going to depart from what ICE vehicle needs?
Click to expand...
Read the article linked in my OP, which offers a number of suggestions:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161007/COPY01/310079965/mercedes-gives-itself-an-electric-makeover

abasile said:
The Tesla Model S is of course a fine example of a purpose-built EV that isn't constrained by the limitations of an ICEV. With no need to accommodate an exhaust system, it's able to seat two additional passengers (though children only) in the rear. And with no ICE, there's room for a "frunk" up front. With no need for a transaxle, even in AWD models, there's no center "hump"; consequently, a large backpack can be placed between the front seats, and a middle passenger in the back seat is left with more leg room.

Design-wise, what other distinct features would we like to see in BEVs?
Click to expand...
My 1972 VW squareback has a much larger and more useful frunk than any Tesla.

Back in the 1960's. my parents each drove a car with a third seat with much more headroom than an S, a Mercury wagon and a Citroen DS.

The Citroen DS wagon, an ICEV designed almost 60 years ago, also has flat front and rear floors, with "...no center "hump"; consequently, a large backpack can be placed between the front seats, and a middle passenger in the back seat is left with more leg room..."

In terms of design, the Tesla S is derivative, nothing more (or less) than the bastard offspring of Jaguar and Maserati ICEV designs.

Many people seem to like it, but I find it disappointingly uninspired.
 
It's certainly true that the Model S wasn't the first vehicle with a "frunk", a possible third row of seats, a flat floor, plenty of cargo space, etc. However, what I find significant is that those attributes exist in a very aerodynamic, sporty, and efficient vehicle. (Amazingly, the newest Model S with AWD is, according to the EPA, a more efficient vehicle than my much smaller 2011 LEAF!)

Styling is inherently subjective, so it's understandable that some may not be impressed with the looks of the Model S (or any other vehicle).

As far as I could tell, the only significant suggestion in that article that might pertain to the functional design of today's not-fully-autonomous EVs would be to lengthen the wheelbase. It'll be interesting to see an automaker try that.
 
DarthPuppy said:
DanCar said:
Besides BEVs allowing a different design because no front engine requirement, I think driverless will also cause a big design leap. Perhaps in 10 years the ton of safety requirements will no longer be required.
Click to expand...
I think it will be more like 50 years as it will take that long to get all the cars without the autonomous safety features off the road. As long as those accident prone vehicles are out there, the rest have to have all the airbags and crumple zones etc. to keep the occupants safe when they encounter an old timer.
Click to expand...
No front end collisions with Google driverless cars. Dozen + times has been rear ended, t-boned, and minor side swipe. If the trend continues then front crumple zones, heavy duty front bumper, and front air bags, will become less interesting. In other words, good driverless cars are good at not running into things.
 
I just leased a VW eGolf. This car was designed for three power plants. The EV version has the same size as the ICE version. We all know that the cheating oil burner version is dead but hopefully not the company.
 
Why are most EVs laid out and look so similar to ICEs? Because weirdmobiles like the Dymaxion were such a sales success (not). Autonomous cars will allow removing safety-related and manual control features to save weight and space once they make up a significant part of the fleet, but that's not going to be for at least 20 years. As to the rest, the human body retains the same general proportions and shape it's always had, which is why mini-compacts tend to look like human babies, with heads disproportionately big for their bodies. Barring major genetic re-design, cars will still have to fit people: http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/76cgenetics.phtml
 
edatoakrun said:
smkettner said:
I agree any change will be slow...What is going to depart from what ICE vehicle needs?
Click to expand...
Read the article linked in my OP, which offers a number of suggestions:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161007/COPY01/310079965/mercedes-gives-itself-an-electric-makeover
Click to expand...
OK and I did not read anything unique to electric vehicles.
 
DanCar said:
No front end collisions with Google driverless cars. Dozen + times has been rear ended, t-boned, and minor side swipe. If the trend continues then front crumple zones, heavy duty front bumper, and front air bags, will become less interesting. In other words, good driverless cars are good at not running into things.
Click to expand...

The fact the autonomous car is good at not hitting things will not prevent oncoming non-autonomous sleepers from crossing the line at the wrong time and impacting the front. So until those non-autonomous versions are low enough in terms of the population on the road, all of the safety features will need to remain. Yes those happen less often then rear-endings, but when they do, they are very dangerous. As time goes on, there will soon be plenty of examples of autonomous cars not being able to avoid those front end collisions caused by the other driver.
 
DarthPuppy said:
DanCar said:
No front end collisions with Google driverless cars. Dozen + times has been rear ended, t-boned, and minor side swipe. If the trend continues then front crumple zones, heavy duty front bumper, and front air bags, will become less interesting. In other words, good driverless cars are good at not running into things.
Click to expand...

The fact the autonomous car is good at not hitting things will not prevent oncoming non-autonomous sleepers from crossing the line at the wrong time and impacting the front. So until those non-autonomous versions are low enough in terms of the population on the road, all of the safety features will need to remain. Yes those happen less often then rear-endings, but when they do, they are very dangerous. As time goes on, there will soon be plenty of examples of autonomous cars not being able to avoid those front end collisions caused by the other driver.
Click to expand...
if the car is truly driverless, then people may not be in the front , making the front crumple zone again less interesting. Also if facing backwards into the car, front air bags become worthless.
 
DanCar said:
if the car is truly driverless, then people may not be in the front , making the front crumple zone again less interesting. Also if facing backwards into the car, front air bags become worthless.
Click to expand...

As long as there are front seats, there is the likelihood of front passengers and therefore the safety features will need to remain. And good luck getting people to all ride facing backwards in their cars - even the ones who don't have motion sickness problems when doing so.
 
Back on-topic (original post below) this article compares the three BEVs to be introduced in the next one-to-two years which will presumably spend quite a bit on style...


Audi e-tron vs Jaguar I-Pace vs Mercedes EQ: electric luxury SUVs compared

After sales of 150,000 or more electric luxury cars from Tesla Motors over four years, the first major wave of long-range electric cars from established luxury automakers is now on the way.

So far, it seems the first of these vehicles will not be sedans that compete with the Tesla Model S, but crossovers apparently targeting the Silicon Valley automaker's Model X.

Over the past year, Audi, Jaguar, and Mercedes-Benz have all unveiled concepts for electric crossover utility vehicles at major auto shows.

All three preview future production models, but none of these electric luxury SUVs will start production until at least 2018, however.

In the meantime, here's what we can expect based on the recent crop of concepts...
Click to expand...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107531_audi-e-tron-vs-jaguar-i-pace-vs-mercedes-eq-electric-luxury-suvs-compared

Personally, of the three I'm most impressed by the Jaguar as I previously posted on the I-Pace thread:
...I give Jaguar credit for taking huge risks with the I-Pace design.

JLR plans to power into plug-ins
Company steers clear of self-driving vehicles

...Speth said the U.S. will be the major market for the high-performance I-Pace...

What's "not clear," Speth said, is whether customers will accept the new design direction of the I-Pace, especially its short hood. Buyers are used to Jaguar's long hood for "the more powerful horses," he said...
Click to expand...
IMO, the I-pace design works, and I hope its acceptance will mean we will soon not have to see BEVs continue to display their huge empty frunks , in mimicry of the engine bays of ICEVs...
Click to expand...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22545&start=10

edatoakrun said:
I'm disappointed that we still must drive BEVs that in terms of design are little more than clumsy imitations of ICEVs.

While this new Merc probably fails the test (IMO) at least there is some evidence in statements by designers that they understand the opportunity.

Mercedes gives itself an electric makeover

When Karl Benz built the first gasoline-powered automobile in 1885, it looked like a horse-drawn carriage without the horses. It would take more than three decades for the shape of vehicles to catch up to the new way of propelling them forward.

Mercedes-Benz design chief Gorden Wagener says electric motors could similarly reshape the way cars look. "The architecture is going to change fundamentally," Wagener says.

At the Paris auto show on Sept. 29, Wagener unveiled the Generation EQ concept, an electric SUV with a range of roughly 480 km (300 miles) as part of a lineup Mercedes will market under a new subbrand, EQ. The first model -- which Mercedes says will be priced to compete with similar cars with traditional engines -- will arrive in 2019...

Standout styling too has not always succeeded. BMW created a new look for its i3 electric city car in 2013, but the quirky design was a factor in the tepid response from buyers. The Model S from Tesla Motors -- with a price tag that can top $110,000 -- has been more successful, last year outselling the $96,600 Mercedes S class in the U.S. But it looks pretty much like other luxury sedans.

"Soon, somebody may take the 'bold pill,' and something completely unique and fabulous will come out," says Howard Guy of Design Q, an automotive design studio that’s worked with Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Ferrari. "The challenge is to make an electric car do something that gasoline proportions and design can never do."...
Click to expand...
http://www.autonews.com/article/20161007/COPY01/310079965/mercedes-gives-itself-an-electric-makeover
Click to expand...
 
Can't say I care for the looks of any of these. Although the Jag is marginally better, they all borrow too much of what I call Chrysler's 'Gangster Limo' look - high beltlines and low roofs with massive supports and huge blind spots, giving the car the appearance of being armored. Fortunately these are just concept cars, which allow the designers to be silly/whimsical.
 

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