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TonyWilliams
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:12 pm

A little less than one mile per kWh is typical for a bus.

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:56 am

Geneva's new 'flash-charge' electric buses refuel in 15 seconds - Autoblog
https://apple.news/AQw9HqfzkSIqh8F2UrRxRvw
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GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:04 pm

Via GCC:
NREL supports propane-to-electricity shuttle bus conversion at Zion National Park
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07 ... -nrel.html

. . . As the propane-powered fleet ages and associated maintenance costs rise, NPS is working with NREL to use this drive-cycle information to optimize the conversion of 14 of its propane buses to run on electricity.

Each bus pulls a passenger trailer. The open-air nature of the bus/trailer setup, which accommodates 68 passengers, is popular among park visitors. By working with NREL to make an informed, data-driven decision, NPS can transition to a new vehicle technology without sacrificing operational capacity or the positive visitor experience.

—Robert Prohaska, NREL
To support the transition, NREL researchers are gathering operational data from the propane buses via onboard logging devices to understand dispatching patterns, evaluate the effect of road grade on system requirements, and determine optimal power and energy storage requirements based on the fleet’s unique operation. . . .

I'd think this is a good match for BEV buses, given the slow speeds, single flat route and limited distance covered, as well as the generally warm temps in the months the shuttles are operating. Always assuming they have enough range, or can take time to charge at the Visitor Center and/or Zion Lodge. Average headways are apparently 15 minutes, less during peak, and more outside of it. Route shown here: https://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/ ... 16-Web.pdf

Might work for Yosemite Valley Shuttles too, although maybe not the Tioga Road or Glacier Pt./Badger Pass ones. Those have been using HEV shuttles for some years, so maybe FCEVs are the way to go there.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:27 am

GRA wrote:I'd think this is a good match for BEV buses, given the slow speeds, single flat route and limited distance covered, as well as the generally warm temps in the months the shuttles are operating. Always assuming they have enough range, or can take time to charge at the Visitor Center and/or Zion Lodge. Average headways are apparently 15 minutes, less during peak, and more outside of it. route shown here: https://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/ ... 16-Web.pdf

Might work for Yosemite Valley Shuttles too, although maybe not the Tioga Road or Glacier Pt./Badger Pass ones. Those have been using HEV shuttles for some years, so maybe FCEVs are the way to go there.


Wow, talk about a lot of FUD. EVs are not restricted to flat roadways, over short distance or warm temps. With the exception of the warm temperature issue, any vehicle will consume more energy regardless of the energy source if it is operated a longer distance over hilly you terrain.

The temperature issues can be mitigated by any power source that can create heat efficiently. That could even be hydrogen, however some type of biofuel or alcohol is probably more logical.

There is no place in Yosemite park that an electric powered vehicle can't go. When considering all the costs to operate a hydrogen powered vehicle versus an electric powered vehicle, I'm confident the EV will win every time. BYD, alone, has sold more EV buses than all the hydrogen cars and buses in the entire world multiplied by an order of magnitude.

For the record, there is not a single data point of hydrogen that cannot be exceeded by an EV bus, and that includes a quick refueling.

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:59 pm

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Geneva's new 'flash-charge' electric buses refuel in 15 seconds - Autoblog
https://apple.news/AQw9HqfzkSIqh8F2UrRxRvw


Recharged at every bus stop. Brilliant!

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'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



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GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:23 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
GRA wrote:I'd think this is a good match for BEV buses, given the slow speeds, single flat route and limited distance covered, as well as the generally warm temps in the months the shuttles are operating. Always assuming they have enough range, or can take time to charge at the Visitor Center and/or Zion Lodge. Average headways are apparently 15 minutes, less during peak, and more outside of it. route shown here: https://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/ ... 16-Web.pdf

Might work for Yosemite Valley Shuttles too, although maybe not the Tioga Road or Glacier Pt./Badger Pass ones. Those have been using HEV shuttles for some years, so maybe FCEVs are the way to go there.

Wow, talk about a lot of FUD. EVs are not restricted to flat roadways, over short distance or warm temps. With the exception of the warm temperature issue, any vehicle will consume more energy regardless of the energy source if it is operated a longer distance over hilly you terrain.

The temperature issues can be mitigated by any power source that can create heat efficiently. That could even be hydrogen, however some type of biofuel or alcohol is probably more logical.

There is no place in Yosemite park that an electric powered vehicle can't go. When considering all the costs to operate a hydrogen powered vehicle versus an electric powered vehicle, I'm confident the EV will win every time. BYD, alone, has sold more EV buses than all the hydrogen cars and buses in the entire world multiplied by an order of magnitude.

For the record, there is not a single data point of hydrogen that cannot be exceeded by an EV bus, and that includes a quick refueling.

The question, as always, Tony, is how well each matches up with the usage patterns and TCO. Yes, BEV buses could be used on the more mountainous routes in Yosemite, but probably not given the headways, distances and unwillingness of the park service to allow major upgrades of the electrical system for charging away from the Valley. Installing an H2 tank is probably a lot easier, as it can more easily be hidden, and the buses would only need to fill up once per day. If BEV buses can do the job at the lowest cost, I say bring 'em on, but knowing what I know of Park Service ideology, I suspect given current tech they may be a poor fit for those types of routes. However, that's why they're doing a usage study in Zion, to see which EV tech's the best fit, and it should be more or less directly applicable to Yosemite Valley shuttle and tour bus routes with some adjustment for winter temps, as Yosemite Valley shuttles run year-round.

TonyWilliams wrote:For the record, there is not a single data point of hydrogen that cannot be exceeded by an EV bus, and that includes a quick refueling.

Oh come now. Where's the multi-megawatt charger that can do this, and the bus battery that could accept it? If 5 kg. 700 bar fills can be accomplished in three minutes, as they're required to demonstrate to be certified, that's 5 x 33.7 kWhe = 168.5 kWhe / 3 = 56.2 kWhe/minute. The chargers going to be used in Switzerland have a maximum rate of 600kW, or 10 kWh/minute assuming no taper. The efficiency difference is nowhere near 5.6 times.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:21 pm

GRA wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:For the record, there is not a single data point of hydrogen that cannot be exceeded by an EV bus, and that includes a quick refueling.

Oh come now. Where's the multi-megawatt charger that can do this, and the bus battery that could accept it? If 5 kg. 700 bar fills can be accomplished in three minutes, as they're required to demonstrate to be certified, that's 5 x 33.7 kWhe = 168.5 kWhe / 3 = 56.2 kWhe/minute. The chargers going to be used in Switzerland have a maximum rate of 600kW, or 10 kWh/minute assuming no taper. The efficiency difference is nowhere near 5.6 times.


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smkettner
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:59 pm

That is what we need a big hydrogen depot in Yosemite National Park. I don't think so.

IMO electric is the answer but I don't think they can even agree on getting electric to the campsites for eliminating RV generators.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:34 am

smkettner wrote:That is what we need a big hydrogen depot in Yosemite National Park. I don't think so.

IMO electric is the answer but I don't think they can even agree on getting electric to the campsites for eliminating RV generators.


I wonder how much electricity a hydrogen station takes. In other words, it's complete hypocrisy to suggest that because there is not an adequate electric supply, that hydrogen somehow the answer over electric vehicles.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:23 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:In other words, it's complete hypocrisy to suggest that because there is not an adequate electric supply, that hydrogen somehow the answer over electric vehicles.
But clearly H2 FCVs are the only solution to practically every transportation application given that BEVs are only capable of travelling short distances at low speeds on flat roads in warm climates. :roll:

But I'm sure GRA will, as is usual, be here soon to claim that he meant to imply nothing of the sort when he wrote this:
GRA wrote:I'd think this is a good match for BEV buses, given the slow speeds, single flat route and limited distance covered, as well as the generally warm temps in the months the shuttles are operating.
He comes here daily to promote H2 but expects us to accept his insistence that he is promoting BEVs also when his "positive" statements are back-handed compliments like this one.

As Tony said, when all is said and done, there will be very few, if any, applications left over for H2 FCV buses once BEVs have taken all the rest.
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