CES 2014: Toyota fuel cell car that can also power a home.

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Flashman

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
68
Location
Central Florida
Highlights:
* Hydrogen - (although I would make and use my own electrolysis setup for Hydrogen)
* 100 kilowatts of power
* 134 horsepower
* zero-to-60 in 10 seconds or slightly better.
* 300 Mile Range.

* Toyota has not yet disclosed pricing
* Toyota plans to start selling the car in the United States next year.
* Honda plans one next year.
* Hyundai will start offering one later this year.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-toyota-fcv-fuel-cell-ces-20140106,0,884109.story#ixzz2pjQ6pJWg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thoughts?
 
“Hydrogen is still a long way off from mainstream commercial vehicles,” Browning said

Yeah...

Tesla Model S:
225-310 kilowatts of power
302-416 horsepower
zero-to-60 in 5.9-4.2 seconds
200-300 mile range
Free roadtrip fuel for life
Avalible now, for purchase

Who's winning? ;)
 
Flashman said:
Highlights:
* Hydrogen - (although I would make and use my own electrolysis setup for Hydrogen)
* 100 kilowatts of power
* 134 horsepower
* zero-to-60 in 10 seconds or slightly better.
* 300 Mile Range.

* Toyota has not yet disclosed pricing
* Toyota plans to start selling the car in the United States next year.
* Honda plans one next year.
* Hyundai will start offering one later this year.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-toyota-fcv-fuel-cell-ces-20140106,0,884109.story#ixzz2pjQ6pJWg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thoughts?

I'd buy one the minute its available. This could really hurt Tesla.
 
To me it will depend on pricing for sure...
And the ability for me to fill it up by myself.
A garden hose, some titanium plates for electrolysis and some juice from a solar setup would power this car for a long time to come.
Does anyone know the life span of a typical or similar Hydrogen fuel cell? how long do they last?

There is virtually no infrastructure for Hydrogen today and we would also need that.
But if they try to do anything silly like prevent an owner from do-it-yourself fill ups then this would be off the table for me as well.
Making Hydrogen in your own backyard is dead simple.
If this is made possible by Toyota it's a slam dunk if the price is right.

Tesla is an outstanding car!! it's just way too expensive to be feasible for the majority of drivers.
I would build my own EV before I paid that much for a Tesla.
 
In order to have enough energy density to be useful, hydrogen must be pressurized. Massively. 10,000 PSI. I don't see home fueling as an option.
 
10,000 PSI? what are you smoking? give me some!! :D
A typical automotive Fuel cell is around 3000 PSI.
You can store it at those pressures but that's no different than a Scuba Tank on steroids.
And you can easily store it at much lower pressures and still fill a Fuel cell. (a tad slower)
When you are making it, pressures are much less.
i have Made the stuff myself.

Yeah, this guy has been making Hydrogen at home for years...
https://www.unitednuclear.com/switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Clearly you have some misconceptions about hydrogen vehicles and their fueling... The old disclaimer "Don't Try This At Home" definitely applies here...

Flashman said:
And the ability for me to fill it up by myself.
A garden hose, some titanium plates for electrolysis and some juice from a solar setup would power this car for a long time to come.
 
You have to agree that compressing the gas takes energy and equipment. For CNG at 3,600 psi it takes 5 stages and about a shipping container worth of equipment for "normal" fueling times. That's with I think 36 psi input. If you don't mind fueling in 8 hours they made a home fueler that cost a few grand and was the size of an air compressor.
 
You have to agree that compressing the gas takes energy and equipment. For CNG at 3,600 psi it takes 5 stages and about a shipping container worth of equipment for "normal" fueling times. That's with I think 36 psi input. If you don't mind fueling in 8 hours they made a home fueler that cost a few grand and was the size of an air compressor.

Yes indeed! Agreed. (disagree with the shipping container for equipment bit) but essentially, you are otherwise spot on.
I would use hydrogen station infrastructure (once it's built of course - non existent today) for daily driving stuff and filling up fast...
But for at home, generating and filling up the tank overnight is really no different than I do now via Charging the LEAF.
8 hours would be just fine for me.
And with a 300 mile range, Filling up my home storage tanks could also be done slowly and the car would only need to be filled once every couple of weeks for my driving habits.

I still think EV's are the better choice for today and as battery tech & chemistry improves will remain in the main stream for the foreseeable future.
But at the same time, I think more methods for zero emission self transportation is a good thing.
At this point I'll take anything to stay away from Oil and ICE.
 
TomT said:
Oh yeah, I'll bet that Tesla (and more everyone else) is quaking in their boots right now! :lol:

epirali said:
I'd buy one the minute its available. This could really hurt Tesla.

Actually I'll bet they are. I think this, and/or Audi Q8 electric would be bad for Tesla. The engine/battery of the model S is great, but the interior, styling and luxury for that price car is just wrong. A 45K hydrogen fueled electric with 300 miles or a luxury SUV with REAL luxury at similar price to the S both would be bad news.

Not sure why you disagree.
 
Probably because hydrogen has been "a few years away" for twenty years if not more. Tesla has said publicly they welcome compitition. The volt was developed specifically because Bob Lutz saw the roadster and he wanted to make an electric vehicle.

Not sure why you disagree with my CNG observations. That's what I've seen at an actual station that has a good amount of traffic.
 
Hydrogen has been "just around the corner" for the last 20-30 years, it's nothing more than a way for big oil to appear to be doing something. Hydrogen never has made sense, never will. You are far better directly using all of the energy needed to compress and reform to just charge your EV battery pack. You think images of a Tesla battery fires frighten people? Just imagine failures of hydrogen compressed storage tanks sitting below you. Buses using CNG have already caught fire and their have been several explosions overseas... No thanks, I'll stick with my Model S.
 
epirali said:
I'd buy one the minute its available. This could really hurt Tesla.
And where do you fuel it up ?

BTW, these will be compliance vehicles sold in "dozens" in CA.
 
mitch672 said:
Hydrogen has been "just around the corner" for the last 20-30 years, it's nothing more than a way for big oil to appear to be doing something. Hydrogen never has made sense, never will. You are far better directly using all of the energy needed to compress and reform to just charge your EV battery pack. You think images of a Tesla battery fires frighten people? Just imagine failures of hydrogen compressed storage tanks sitting below you. Buses using CNG have already caught fire and their have been several explosions overseas... No thanks, I'll stick with my Model S.
This. The incessant hype over hydrogen fuel cells is getting really old.
 
evnow said:
epirali said:
I'd buy one the minute its available. This could really hurt Tesla.
And where do you fuel it up ?

BTW, these will be compliance vehicles sold in "dozens" in CA.

I think hydrogen cells can be made quite safe actually. Its funny people who understand and reject the baseless fear of "Tesla caught fire" are spreading FUD about another technology.

Also I think quick refueling alternative like hydrogen may fit into the existing gas station model much easier than the 30 minutes to recharge model.
 
dgpcolorado said:
mitch672 said:
Hydrogen has been "just around the corner" for the last 20-30 years, it's nothing more than a way for big oil to appear to be doing something. Hydrogen never has made sense, never will. You are far better directly using all of the energy needed to compress and reform to just charge your EV battery pack. You think images of a Tesla battery fires frighten people? Just imagine failures of hydrogen compressed storage tanks sitting below you. Buses using CNG have already caught fire and their have been several explosions overseas... No thanks, I'll stick with my Model S.
This. The incessant hype over hydrogen fuel cells is getting really old.

Again I am a little puzzled. I am very much in the electric car (pure not hybrid) camp. I love my Roadster. I love my Leaf. If Tesla could make an interior worthy of the price tag and all wheel drive (looking at you Model X) I would buy one in a second. I have no issues with high capacity batteries, charging, etc.

But I also know I can't use these cars for long road trips. No I don't think the supercharger "path" is the only places I will ever drive. I really would like an electric car that had a viable and quick "filling" infrastructure. I think that would be the key to wide spread adoption. I do not understand the unbiased negativity about a solution that would provide that.

Don't get me wrong, I like and respect what Tesla has done. I hope they can succeed. I also wish Nissan was more aggressive and managed to make the Leaf a breakthrough car. But right now I don't think either one will become a wide spread success.

I want something that will make electric vehicles the norm, not just for the self selecting few.
 
First I have to say I am all for CNG and have driven one in the past, but just recently we had a CNG truck explode killing the driver and seriously injuring the passenger. Not that people aren't killed daily in gasoline vehicles, but this was the first I had heard of one actually exploding. Looks like the "load" shifted in the trailer causing it to penetrate the CNG tank.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20140403/GPG0101/304030314/1-dead-after-natural-gas-truck-explodes-Howard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
BrockWI said:
First I have to say I am all for CNG and have driven one in the past, but just recently we had a CNG truck explode killing the driver and seriously injuring the passenger. Not that people aren't killed daily in gasoline vehicles, but this was the first I had heard of one actually exploding. Looks like the "load" shifted in the trailer causing it to penetrate the CNG tank.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20140403/GPG0101/304030314/1-dead-after-natural-gas-truck-explodes-Howard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Isn't this just a case of bad design? First passenger cars will not have heavy loads or the same demands as a truck. Second if Tesla had not engineered good shielding and fail safe systems the battery packs could be hazardous, yet they have been made safer than most other cars. So with proper over design and protection why can't a compressed hydrogen cell be made just as safe?

I would imagine the hardest part would be for high speed penetration by debris and for crash impact. I think there is a point where a very strong impact would be fatal regardless of any potential explosions.

I am not discounting the potential disaster, just that it should be an engineering problem that can be solved.
 
Unless platinum has become super cheap, or they figured out a way to make a fuel cell from a different catalyst, this car is going to cost a fortune. Probably more than a Tesla with about the same range, such that no one in their right mind would every buy one. And if you do buy one, you're just increasing platinum scarcity even more.
 
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