Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Forcing employees to take vacation in April or miss pay can't be a morale builder.

This "too much automation" epiphany does sound like hubris that only Elon can envision the optimal way to build cars and all those other manufacturers who have been refining their processes over decades are just stupid.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Forcing employees to take vacation in April or miss pay can't be a morale builder.

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It's certainly not "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" for the assembly line workers at Tesla.

LTLFTcomposite said:

This "too much automation" epiphany does sound like hubris that only Elon can envision the optimal way to build cars and all those other manufacturers who have been refining their processes over decades are just stupid.

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:?: :?:

Hardly. That is clearly a black eye for Elon Musk and Tesla. That said, I do give Elon Musk credit for taking the responsibility for this and working to correct the mistake. As others have said, automation of virtually all of the vehicle assembly is likely inevitable, but it seems the technology is not there yet. Who knows? Maybe Tesla will eventually make it work...

EVDRIVER said:

Instead we have people cheering for their failure to profit and entitled whiners that are upset they can’t get what they want when they want it.

It blows my mind to hear people say Tesla never intended to build a low price car and it’s a trick while Nissan knew their packs would degrade and they basicallly did everything they could to screw customers out of warranty support while dealers try to fleece customers with oil changes.

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Want to know why some people want Tesla to go away? Look in the mirror.

You're like that guy that overhears someone at a party talking about their new Camaro and immediately comes over to start dumping on it and explaining why a Porsche 911 is better all the while ignoring the the much higher price and the fact that you don't own either car. You act like you are on some crusade to save the ignorant masses from the evil being foisted upon them by Nissan with the LEAF. Chances are they are smarter than you and know value when they see it. Focusing on features that aren't relevant and predicting future problems based history while completely ignoring any evidence that doesn't support your position is the picture of desperation.

The fact that you never say anything positive on a board focused on the LEAF makes you a troll.

some people don't get it. some never will. oh well. at least there's an ignore button.

go Elon!

Joe6pack said:

EVDRIVER said:

Instead we have people cheering for their failure to profit and entitled whiners that are upset they can’t get what they want when they want it.

It blows my mind to hear people say Tesla never intended to build a low price car and it’s a trick while Nissan knew their packs would degrade and they basicallly did everything they could to screw customers out of warranty support while dealers try to fleece customers with oil changes.

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Want to know why some people want Tesla to go away? Look in the mirror.

You're like that guy that overhears someone at a party talking about their new Camaro and immediately comes over to start dumping on it and explaining why a Porsche 911 is better all the while ignoring the the much higher price and the fact that you don't own either car. You act like you are on some crusade to save the ignorant masses from the evil being foisted upon them by Nissan with the LEAF. Chances are they are smarter than you and know value when they see it. Focusing on features that aren't relevant and predicting future problems based history while completely ignoring any evidence that doesn't support your position is the picture of desperation.

The fact that you never say anything positive on a board focused on the LEAF makes you a troll.

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I would never own a Camaro, that is correct. I owned one of the first Nissan LEAFs ever made, I have organized Nissan community events, met every lead designer from Nissan and know some of the execs as well. I have promoted the LEAF in the past feverishly and been an EV proponent for more than 15 years owning many factory EVs. I have sat in meetings with board members from major auto makers on EV advisory panels and would say I have done as much to promote the LEAF and other EVs as many people on this board. I most certainly have said many positive things on this board about the LEAF as well as many negative things as well. I have given this same feedback to Nissan execs in heated panel discussions along with others to improve the LEAF functionality, directly resulting is such things as SOC percentage which Nissan fought for a long time. The same goes for Tesla which I also happen to own. Not sure how that makes me a troll but before you call someone a troll you may want to get your facts straight before making such a silly analogy. You say.....

"You act like you are on some crusade to save the ignorant masses from the evil being foisted upon them by Nissan with the LEAF"

Very funny, did you quote me almost exactly from this thread and substitute the word Tesla to Nissan because that's not very original. That is what Lorenfb and ED are doing and I think any one that thinks a LEAF meets their needs should buy one. I was making an illustration about two people but what you quoted from me below is a fact:

"It blows my mind to hear people say Tesla never intended to build a low price car and it’s a trick while Nissan knew their packs would degrade and they basically did everything they could to screw customers out of warranty support while dealers try to fleece customers with oil changes."

Nissan does do this and continues to do this and so do Nissan dealers, the example is illustrating how hypocritical some here are posting every third party opinion piece about Tesla while ignoring the real things Nissan has done and continues to do. I never said Tesla does not have financial issues but I don't go around posting sensational articles about every Tesla issue or about Nissan for that matter. My post is not directed to you but a few people here, but thank you for your input. Nissan is not "evil" and no one is saving anyone here that L&Es job, I will say Tesla has historically done more to stand behind customers than Nissan and Nissan has gone out of their way to short change customers out of pack warranties as just one example. Own both cars for a while and I'll bet you a pizza on that. I have had my car serviced at Tesla and never paid a penny for anything under warranty or for "service" and they even replaced a bent logo that clearly was not a warranty item. I don't think I have ever said to anyone that they shouldn't buy a LEAF unless it didn't meet their range needs. I guess I need to look in the mirror more because I must be a Tesla troll even though I have posted negative comments about the 3 and S and I don't even post on Tesla forums which one would think would be a prerequisite. I would consider buying another LEAF if they produced a pack with fewer constraints, a better charge network existed, and they stood behind their product rather than be forced to do so. The dealer experience is not comparable and I can't see that ever changing because of the structure of ownership and I find it hard to have my car serviced where the service people are mostly clueless about the car or make things up that sond good to them but that's my preference of course.


I doubt Tesla will flop with Musk in charge but if they fail financially they will be a great buy. The reason many people like Tesla is not just because they make an innovative product but that they believe in the mission. Generally a company that is trying to intentionally deceive customers is not type of company that opens up all of their patents. Don't expect Nissan to ever do that with even one patent and there is a fundamental difference in the culture of the two companies, strategies and philosophies. Nissan has it's place in the market as well but IMO they are way behind because they move slowly and conservatively but if they don't redefine their pack strategy particularly without the large federal credits they are going to struggle.

This is supposed to be the official Model 3 thread but it's more the thread to post sensationalized articles from shorting sites or the cheering squad side show for Tesla failure.

Model 3 teardown (near) final results discussed.

Tesla Model 3: Inside & Out - Autoline After Hours 417

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCrkO1x-Qo&t=180s

edatoakrun said:

Model 3 teardown (near) final results discussed.

Tesla Model 3: Inside & Out - Autoline After Hours 417

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCrkO1x-Qo&t=180s

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He does not understand things because many parts of the design are far more technical and advanced for a guy that has been taking apart ICE cars too long. There are things in that car that are FAR more advanced that they don't mention because they can't even see them. There is some incredible engineering in the 3 that many car people won't even get until they read the manuals or hear about it from Tesla- LOL. Funny part is he ripped on the car a while back and now his story evolves because he made judgements before he really drove or understood many things. In addition he is looking at it as if it is "fixed" like traditional cars. Good luck with the power electronics guys.....

He essentially said that they nailed all the really hard parts and the assembly work is not well done. assembly can be improved and quickly, the hard parts are time consuming and essentially he said that if they get this car assembled correctly, its light years ahead of everything else. Tesla is working on this issue and it was encouraging to hear his review of the car. His cars were early versions and fit and finish was a problem. I've not seen many issues with this on recent deliveries, but it is not perfect, so they do still have work to do, but a "perfect" fit and finish is not my biggest concern when buying the car.

palmermd said:

He essentially said that they nailed all the really hard parts and the assembly work is not well done. assembly can be improved and quickly, the hard parts are time consuming and essentially he said that if they get this car assembled correctly, its light years ahead of everything else. Tesla is working on this issue and it was encouraging to hear his review of the car. His cars were early versions and fit and finish was a problem. I've not seen many issues with this on recent deliveries, but it is not perfect, so they do still have work to do, but a "perfect" fit and finish is not my biggest concern when buying the car.

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Since his sample the fit has been improved of course and continues to be. Many people that got cars to "tear apart" bought off ebay or private parties and they were early cars. As we know these are things that will change. Tesla is not a 50 year auto maker so each time they go through these pains. His is correct about light years ahead, they car is technically more advanced than any other EV made today beyond comparison.

palmermd said:

He essentially said that they nailed all the really hard parts and the assembly work is not well done. assembly can be improved and quickly, the hard parts are time consuming and essentially he said that if they get this car assembled correctly, its light years ahead of everything else. Tesla is working on this issue and it was encouraging to hear his review of the car. His cars were early versions and fit and finish was a problem. I've not seen many issues with this on recent deliveries, but it is not perfect, so they do still have work to do, but a "perfect" fit and finish is not my biggest concern when buying the car.

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Other key points of the teardown video discussion:

1. That the M3 sold at $35K would not be profitable, i.e. given the key costs - chassis, battery, & production.
2. That the chassis is over-designed and too heavy, e.g. the rear.
3. That the A-arm design is questionable, e.g. the Mickey Mouse tie-wrapped (zip-tie) weight (damper?)
4. Assumed that the AP processor board and processor chips were designed by Tesla.
The processor chips were Nvidia's and it's likely that Nvidia designed a major part of that board to integrate with their chips.
5. That the battery design was overly complex and the construction was costly.
6. That it's questionable whether Tesla can ever achieve a production goal of 6K per week with their in-house production capabilities.
7. Without major training of the production-line workers, the M3 will continue to have assembly flaws, e.g. panel gaps.
8. Indicated that no major U.S. automotive OEM has indicated a desire to purchase the teardown report. (Probably don't consider
the M3 all that significant a vehicle design.)

its light years ahead of everything else

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Laughable!

So after thousands of comments both pro and con, what has been decided?

Well, the T3 is not perfect.
Its not cheap
Its cool
Its fast
Its hard to get right now.
It will be expensive (compared to other EVs) to drive

So the search for the perfect car goes on!

lorenfb said:

palmermd said:

He essentially said that they nailed all the really hard parts and the assembly work is not well done. assembly can be improved and quickly, the hard parts are time consuming and essentially he said that if they get this car assembled correctly, its light years ahead of everything else. Tesla is working on this issue and it was encouraging to hear his review of the car. His cars were early versions and fit and finish was a problem. I've not seen many issues with this on recent deliveries, but it is not perfect, so they do still have work to do, but a "perfect" fit and finish is not my biggest concern when buying the car.

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Other key points of the teardown video discussion:

1. That the M3 sold at $35K would not be profitable, i.e. given the key costs - chassis, battery, & production.
2. That the chassis is over-designed and too heavy, e.g. the rear.
3. That the A-arm design is questionable, e.g. the Mickey Mouse tie-wrapped (zip-tie) weight (damper?)
4. Assumed that the AP processor board and processor chips were designed by Tesla.
The processor chips were Nvidia's and it's likely that Nvidia designed a major part of that board to integrate with their chips.
5. That the battery design was overly complex and the construction was costly.
6. That it's questionable whether Tesla can ever achieve a production goal of 6K per week with their in-house production capabilities.
7. Without major training of the production-line workers, the M3 will continue to have assembly flaws, e.g. panel gaps.
8. Indicated that no major U.S. automotive OEM has indicated a desire to purchase the teardown report. (Probably don't consider
the M3 all that significant a vehicle design.)

its light years ahead of everything else

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Laughable!

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You quote some old guy that does not even know what he's looking at half the time, that is laughable. Why don't you use validated info vs third party swill. You know noting about the cars technology and that guy certainly is not qualified based on his ignorant comments. The block is designed to lower the fundamental resonance frequesncy and it's not held on by zip ties, if the guy did his work he would know what the ties were for and that cutting them has zero impact on anything. The last one in the most ridiculous, why would they pay for his biased and uninformed teardown when all the major car makers already have a M3 and S and have done their own evaluations? News flash- all the EV makers large and small also have them. I guess his value was left in the past with his dated expertise and his objectivity does not pass the snuff for even auto makers and they car is so noteworthy they are doing the tears in house. You should see if he's hiring he can use your firmware expertise which has been as wrong as this guy. Keep on Trolling Loren, you are killing it!

lorenfb said:

palmermd said:

He essentially said that they nailed all the really hard parts and the assembly work is not well done. assembly can be improved and quickly, the hard parts are time consuming and essentially he said that if they get this car assembled correctly, its light years ahead of everything else. Tesla is working on this issue and it was encouraging to hear his review of the car. His cars were early versions and fit and finish was a problem. I've not seen many issues with this on recent deliveries, but it is not perfect, so they do still have work to do, but a "perfect" fit and finish is not my biggest concern when buying the car.

Click to expand...

Other key points of the teardown video discussion:

1. That the M3 sold at $35K would not be profitable, i.e. given the key costs - chassis, battery, & production.
2. That the chassis is over-designed and too heavy, e.g. the rear.
3. That the A-arm design is questionable, e.g. the Mickey Mouse tie-wrapped (zip-tie) weight (damper?)
4. Assumed that the AP processor board and processor chips were designed by Tesla.
The processor chips were Nvidia's and it's likely that Nvidia designed a major part of that board to integrate with their chips.
5. That the battery design was overly complex and the construction was costly.
6. That it's questionable whether Tesla can ever achieve a production goal of 6K per week with their in-house production capabilities.
7. Without major training of the production-line workers, the M3 will continue to have assembly flaws, e.g. panel gaps.
8. Indicated that no major U.S. automotive OEM has indicated a desire to purchase the teardown report. (Probably don't consider
the M3 all that significant a vehicle design.)

its light years ahead of everything else

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Laughable!

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I'll just say that you and I watched totally different versions of the video. Thanks for the morning chuckle.

Ironically there are some one time posters here that slam Tesla and the odd part is that all their IP addresses are from the same service in Michigan. I'm still waiting for the massive 12V battery and motor failures that Tesla is hiding.

I picked up my new Model 3 last night at the Marina del Rey delivery center and it was a really nice experience. The entirety of the paperwork took less than ten minutes and I spent about an hour going over the car and learning the various systems (most of which I already knew, but I played along). They then had a little “classroom” kind of thing where they covered autopilot and phone key pairing and such. All in all a dramatically more pleasant evening than a typical car purchase.

The car itself is as close to flawlessly assembled as I could hope for. The gaps are even and the paint is lustrous. Given all the online consternation over Tesla’s build quality I went over the car very carefully and thought I found a paint defect but it turned out to be a little blob of dried polishing compound between the bumper and fender.

It’s only been a day but so far I’m very impressed with the car. The stereo is incredible, the interior is well made and relaxing, autopilot is quite capable, and the ride/handling balance is what I would consider ideal.

Time will tell but so far, so good. As an aside they were delivering maybe 25 of them or so while I was getting mine. Things seem to be moving along.

mtndrew1 said:

I picked up my new Model 3 last night at the Marina del Rey delivery center and it was a really nice experience. The entirety of the paperwork took less than ten minutes and I spent about an hour going over the car and learning the various systems (most of which I already knew, but I played along). They then had a little “classroom” kind of thing where they covered autopilot and phone key pairing and such. All in all a dramatically more pleasant evening than a typical car purchase.

The car itself is as close to flawlessly assembled as I could hope for. The gaps are even and the paint is lustrous. Given all the online consternation over Tesla’s build quality I went over the car very carefully and thought I found a paint defect but it turned out to be a little blob of dried polishing compound between the bumper and fender.

It’s only been a day but so far I’m very impressed with the car. The stereo is incredible, the interior is well made and relaxing, autopilot is quite capable, and the ride/handling balance is what I would consider ideal.

Time will tell but so far, so good. As an aside they were delivering maybe 25 of them or so while I was getting mine. Things seem to be moving along.

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Mabruk !

lorenfb said:

Other key points of the teardown video discussion:

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I also heard some differences. Here is what I heard:

lorenfb said:

1. That the M3 sold at $35K would not be profitable, i.e. given the key costs - chassis, battery, & production.

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Agreed, though he said "$37K", which was odd.

lorenfb said:

2. That the chassis is over-designed and too heavy, e.g. the rear.

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He said "body", not chassis. IMO, the Tesla Model 3 has an actual "chassis" in the form of the "skateboard". He indicated that it was the heaviest body he had ever seen, and that they have previously done a teardown on a Bentley. He felt that the designers of the body were new at this.

lorenfb said:

3. That the A-arm design is questionable, e.g. the Mickey Mouse tie-wrapped (zip-tie) weight (damper?)

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Yes, but he guessed that the weight was added because the suspension was likely tuned to carry the added weight of the driveshaft in a dual-moter version of the car.

lorenfb said:

4. Assumed that the AP processor board and processor chips were designed by Tesla.

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Actually, he stated that he knew it was designed by Nvidia since it was printed right on the card.

lorenfb said:

5. That the battery design was overly complex and the construction was costly.

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In fact, he stated that this was the most advanced battery design that he has seen to date. He was floored at the current balance achieved between the different modules in the battery.

lorenfb said:

6. That it's questionable whether Tesla can ever achieve a production goal of 6K per week with their in-house production capabilities.

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The discussion indicated that 1000 cars/day was the standard for a modern automotive factory operating two shifts and that Tesla was not setting any records if they ran three shifts to achieve 6000 cars/week. They questioned how repairs and maintenance to the robots or other parts of the factory would be done in a three-shift mode. They also indicated that they feel that "synchronous" production is not achievable with automobiles. I'm not sure what that word implies, but it sounded like they might be talking about "continuous motion machines" as are used in very-high volume manufacturing operations. I guess I'm not sure I'm understanding them, as I believe most cars are built while in motion and even the Boeing 777 is manufactured while continuously moving IIUC.

lorenfb said:

7. Without major training of the production-line workers, the M3 will continue to have assembly flaws, e.g. panel gaps.

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Here I'm pretty sure they were not talking about the assembly line workers, but rather they were talking about the engineers who designed the body and the assembly line that builds it. Their contention is that Tesla got all the "high-tech" parts of the car more than right, but that they are struggling with 20th-century technology and that they would not catch up unless they brought in outside help.

He also said that if Tesla had executed on the body and interior the way they executed on the "skateboard" and electronics, that the car would be unbeatable and would not be suffering the production woes it currently has.

lorenfb said:

8. Indicated that no major U.S. automotive OEM has indicated a desire to purchase the teardown report. (Probably don't consider the M3 all that significant a vehicle design.)

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He said that one US auto manufacturer is interested in the report, but it was not one that he expected to have interest.

I'll add another one:
9. He noted how rabid the supporters of Tesla are in attacking anyone who criticizes the company. He read a post from the Tesla blog by a woman who was describing some of the problems with her Model 3 and read a comment from someone who said her brain was not working.

Isn't interesting how biases can influence how one interprets what is said when watching a video?

lorenfb said:

Isn't interesting how biases can influence how one interprets what is said when watching a video?

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You sure are right about that!

You missed the most telling one on the list:

#9 You won't ever own one.

I can't wait for my wheel to fall off when the zip ties break on the blocks of steel which are only there to set them initially as they have no function after production, motor magnets fly off, door panel gaps rub the paint off, 12V battery dies weekly, won't stop in time from being the heaviest car ever, I feel inadequate that auto makers are not buying a tear down report because they have the car already, my firmware can only be upgraded to certain systems. it's over designed and I will have to downgrade parts in the future to make them break sooner, and on and on. Did I miss any other FUD? Wait, Tesla whips their employees on the factory floor?

Can no one else see how out of hand this stuff has gotten? It's the Hatfields (Tesla) vs the McCoys (everyone else). The good news is that the early adopters and fanbois aren't going to get to decide the outcome.