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Surprised none of the mainstream EV websites have mentioned it, but today marks 5 years since the first deliveries of the Model S to customers. I've often been critical of Tesla for their hype, especially their repeatedly announcing ridiculously (ludicrously) optimistic timetables and their subsequent failure to come anywhere near meeting them; their early decisions re SC routing; their only major design misstep so far regarding various features of the Model X; and especially their releasing an immature AP out to the world, but I do want to give the Model S its due.

While it was and is a rich person's toy, in conjunction with the SC network it's a reasonably practical one, and a compelling car that forever put to rest the argument that BEVs were nothing more than glorified golf carts and would always remain so. Its introduction and subsequent sales success forced almost all other auto manufacturers to take PEVs generally and BEVs in particular seriously, something that neither the LEAF or Volt did. I consider it the most significant car of the past decade (I'd rate the 2003 XW20 Prius as the most significant car of the 21st Century to date, although the Model S will likely overtake it). BEVs are still at least one and maybe two auto generations away from providing ICE-comparable performance at a comparable price, but the Model S and SC network showed everyone the way to get there. So, Happy 5th Birthday!
 
I am seriously thinking about buying a used Tesla Model S 85 (non-P) from Tesla.com and have a couple of questions after doing a test drive in a new P100D:

Panoramic roof - does it give extra headroom or just feel that way? Pro or con?
Pro/con on Smart Air Suspension - I have heard it is expensive to repair if it fails, may not make much difference, although abasile recommended it to me
Are earliest models (2012 or early 2013) more likely to have problems?
Would you be concerned about high mileage, and if so over what level? The battery and drive warranty is the remaining portion of 8 years, but unlimited miles.
Any other suggestions?

I am getting tired of the extra hassle with my 2011 Leaf with 30% capacity loss and even shorter range than new.

Thanks.
 
I've loved the last 4 years with mine.
Some thoughts:
When I drive newer loaners I notice the build quality has markedly improved since my 2013.

I have the pano-roof and it seems to give about 1.5 inches of additional headroom.

Mine is standard suspension and I haven't missed the air except on the few occasions when I wanted to raise the car for clearance issues.
I prefer the simplicity as well.

I guess I might be concerned about suspension repairs on any Tesla out of warranty since I hear they can be really expensive. That may not correlate with high mileage though. Not sure how "high" is high for you 70,000?
The only other thing I've heard of is the center screen failing. That's a couple grand IIRC.

I would be inclined to buy a CPO if only to get the warranty Tesla provides with all their CPOs. Saves a lot of worry IMO. At least for a couple years.

They are really fun to drive and a dream on long trips. Good luck!
 
Stoaty said:
Are earliest models (2012 or early 2013) more likely to have problems?
Would you be concerned about high mileage, and if so over what level? The battery and drive warranty is the remaining portion of 8 years, but unlimited miles.
Any other suggestions?
I wouldn't want to keep any Tesla beyond warranty unless you're prepared to set aside a considerable budget for repairs.

Take a look at examples of other automakers (some of which aren't known for great reliability or consistency) and their durability testing:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17305&p=377049
I posted many of the same at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/automotive-reliability-and-durability-testing.56176/ and the topic is mostly crickets.

Now take a look at some of these (I have MANY more) and ask yourself if you believe Tesla has taken shortcuts in such testing or fixing the root cause of issues found or has issues w/manufacturing consistency or pushes stuff out before it's ready:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/consumer-reports-model-x-least-reliable-car.79793/page-2#post-1798860
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-replacement-poll.29834/page-27#post-1653580
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-replacement-poll.29834/page-27#post-1603011
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-s-not-ready-for-commercial-use-prime-time-can-i-afford-to-own-this-car.36414/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/6th-drive-unit-replacement-and-more.72974/page-2#post-1619754
https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html under Maintenance & Repairs - keep in mind they got their car new and had their car about 17 months putting on about 30K miles

I don't know if door handles have come down from the $1,300 a pop mentioned at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/pointless-door-handle-wear.56589/page-2#post-1339173. Door handles failing isn't that uncommon. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/door-handles-failed.62620/page-5#post-1883838 has been thru some replacements. I haven't finished reading https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/door-handles-failed.62620/page-5#post-1883838, but he does mention a needing a new DU and that half the car has been replaced over the years. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/poor-old-essie-towed-again.68269/ was one if his earlier needing a tow threads.

I suppose if it's an early car and had many of the inferior parts replaced w/longer lasting/improved ones, that can help.

Hang out on "TMC" long enough and you can get a flavor for their reliability vs. the Leaf on MNL... I think you'll get the idea pretty quickly.

I can easily afford a new Model S or the CPOs. Neither are on my shopping list. I also have not put down any deposit $ towards a Model 3, yet.
 
cwerdna said:
I wouldn't want to keep any Tesla beyond warranty unless you're prepared to set aside a considerable budget for repairs.

Now take a look at some of these (I have MANY more) and ask yourself if you believe Tesla has taken shortcuts in such testing or fixing the root cause of issues found or has issues w/manufacturing consistency or pushes stuff out before it's ready:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/consumer-reports-model-x-least-reliable-car.79793/page-2#post-1798860
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-replacement-poll.29834/page-27#post-1653580
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-replacement-poll.29834/page-27#post-1603011
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-s-not-ready-for-commercial-use-prime-time-can-i-afford-to-own-this-car.36414/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/6th-drive-unit-replacement-and-more.72974/page-2#post-1619754
https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html under Maintenance & Repairs - keep in mind they got their car new and had their car about 17 months putting on about 30K miles
Thanks for detailed reply with sobering information. Need to think long and hard about this aspect before taking the plunge.
 
^^^^
BTW, http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-battery-life-study-charted-by-plug-in-america/ was taken awhile ago. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101153_two-thirds-of-earliest-tesla-drive-trains-to-fail-in-60000-miles-owner-data-suggests might be worth reading, even if you ignore the 2/3rds assertions.

As a general rule, I tend to shy away from cars with below average overall reliability ratings. The chart at the bottom of http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/04/reliability-histories/index.htm is what the average problem rate is for each system for a given model year over the past 12 months period (which is what their survey covers).

To be fair, the 3 guys w/so many DU replacements were probably the most extreme, but it doesn't seem uncommon to find folks on "TMC" who've had at least 1 DU replacement. Maybe they finally got it right w/revision Q?
 
cwerdna said:
I wouldn't want to keep any Tesla beyond warranty unless you're prepared to set aside a considerable budget for repairs...
I've been mulling this one over for some time and my take is that if you can get the car inexpensively enough the savings can be used to pay for any out-of-warranty repairs.

I would suggest going the CPO route. Even the higher mileage CPOs now have a two year/up-to-100k-miles general warranty (the lower mileage — fewer than 50k — CPO cars have the same 4 year/50k miles warranty as new cars). That ought to give one enough time to get any problems worked out that crop up; after that you're on your own.

So far as the drive unit replacements, those are covered by the eight year warranty. I'm getting a bit of a whine in my 2014 S60 and am guessing that I will need one eventually. However, it isn't something that will leave me stranded by the side of the road or anything like that. My sense is that drive unit replacements on early cars have declined substantially over the last year or two, so I think that Tesla has solved the problem, although there are a few outlier cars that have had repeated DU replacements. (The TMC chatter about DU replacements has pretty much ceased and I pay attention to it, for obvious reasons.) The dual drive cars, with the smaller motors, have very good reliability for the DUs, from what I've observed, although being newer they are currently much more expensive on the used market.

The downside for service for me is that I am 338 miles from the nearest Service Center — Denver — so any service visit is a PITA. I've had only one service visit in 15+ months/27k miles: a door handle replacement that I had done at Salt Lake City — 376 miles from home — and the service was truly outstanding. They checked pretty much everything, replaced my key fob with a newer one, and the car was returned to me cleaner than it had been since first delivered. I also had to have a broken UMC replaced in Portland, but that wasn't really car related.
Stoaty said:
...
Panoramic roof - does it give extra headroom or just feel that way? Pro or con?
Pro/con on Smart Air Suspension - I have heard it is expensive to repair if it fails, may not make much difference, although abasile recommended it to me
Are earliest models (2012 or early 2013) more likely to have problems?
Would you be concerned about high mileage, and if so over what level? The battery and drive warranty is the remaining portion of 8 years, but unlimited miles.
Any other suggestions?...
I didn't want the pano roof, figured it was just something else to break that I would never use. I also live in snow country so the extra insulation of a conventional roof was a consideration. However, Tesla has discontinued the conventional roof in favor of an all glass roof and people who have it really like it. A pano roof is sort of like that.

I chose coil suspension since I considered air suspension another maintenance item. But I don't really read about repairs for SAS very often. Given his awkward road/driveway interface I can see why abasile likes the SAS (I scraped my car on the first attempt and had to approach his EVSE at an angle to avoid doing that). [Yes, abasile was kind enough to host me on my way home from San Diego last fall; my family used to have a house at nearby Lake Arrowhead, so the area was very familiar to me; 2000+ mile road trips are easy in a Model S.] I do have problems with scraping unusually high curb stops with my coil suspension however.

2012 and 2013 models were likely to have more problems but buying one used now I would guess that many of the problems would have already been fixed. I think it depends on the person. To me, one advantage of a used car, besides a considerably reduced price, is that I don't have the worry so much about the first ding or scratch. It runs, it is very fun to drive, and it is going to get hard use, given where I live. So long as everything works, or I can get it fixed under warranty, that's good enough. By my standards, living near Service Centers as Stoaty (and abasile) do, makes getting things fixed pretty easy, even if one has to wait for an appointment.

So far as mileage for used cars, if going for the new 2 year CPO/100k total miles warranty, I'd favor a car with about 55k to 70k miles. That gives you up to 100k miles to get any problems fixed. I'd be reluctant to go with a CPO car with, say, 90k miles. That's a bit more of a gamble, although I presume such cars would be at much lower cost.

A downside to a Tesla purchase is the relatively high insurance cost, with some carriers, as well as expensive and long collision repairs, due to the delay in obtaining parts and the complete lack of aftermarket parts. Try not to crash it! [My big fear, given where I live in the mountains, is deer collisions — I've already lost one car to a deer and try to never drive my S at "deer o'clock," when the danger is greatest.]

Overall, I am so pleased with my Model S, versus what I know about the Model 3, that my inclination would be to trade my car in for another CPO S, this time with a bigger battery for greatly increased Supercharging speed. I really like the space and liftback in my S. I've even put a 10 foot piece of electrical conduit inside my car with no difficulty. It also holds my mountain bike easily, so no need for racks and the like. The Model S is a great road trip car.

My 2¢.
 
I am joining the Tesla club with a CPO 2013 model S85, number around 15,000. White with tan seats, panorama roof, 64,000 miles, Smart Air Suspension, twin chargers, tech package, sound studio package. Price - $43,500. I figure (hope) that the money I save over a $55,000 car with 4 year warranty instead of 2 years will put me ahead financially. As long as it runs well and the motor doesn't start whining loudly after my battery/drive warranty runs out I think I will do OK. A few dings will probably develop while I am driving up in the mountains to go hiking, so if the paint job isn't perfect to start with it won't bother me. My thanks to abasile for advice while I made up my mind. My service center is 2 miles away. I called to ask whether there are long wait times for an appt if service is needed. They said 1-2 days! The cheaper used Teslas (less than $45,000) don't last long, so you have to be ready to jump on them if you want to go for a lower price car.

Leaf will probably be given to one of my nephews to use as a commuter car.
 
Welcome to the Tesla club. Do you know if your drive unit has ever been replaced? Tesla got that problem sorted out >2 years ago, which is why you hear very little about it anymore. It is also why Elon said that any Teslas made since May/June 2015 should have a 1,000,000 mile drivetrain. My 70D has had ZERO issues in 24,000 miles. I'm getting ready to take it on a road trip this week, and looking forward to it. The Model S is a wonderful road car, and the Autopilot definitely makes it less tiresome. The only option I wish I would have passed on was the Panoramic roof. The sun here in Florida is just too much, so I have to keep sunshades in the roof 10 months out of the year.
A CPO is an excellent bargain. My neighbor recently cancelled his Model 3 reservation and picked up a 2013 P85 really cheap.
 
keydiver said:
It is also why Elon said that any Teslas made since May/June 2015 should have a 1,000,000 mile drivetrain.
Source?
keydiver said:
Do you know if your drive unit has ever been replaced? Tesla got that problem sorted out >2 years ago, which is why you hear very little about it anymore.
Maybe. I haven't had time to follow much on "TMC" anymore.

Some examples past of DUs from after May/June 2015...
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/dual-engine-shut-down-on-freeway-anyone-else.64195/page-2#post-1409450 - "front drive unit fail on our second day of ownership back in December 2015"
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement.46047/page-5#post-1302441 - Dec '15 delivery, developed noise after 1000 miles
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-s-technical-mechanical-issues.10398/page-142#post-1811020 - rear DU failed - delivered 12/2015 (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-replacement-poll.29834/page-31#post-2088063 says late Nov 2015 production)
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-p100d-model-s-failed.78593/ - took delivery in Sep 2016, verdict at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-p100d-model-s-failed.78593/page-3#post-1774189, rear DU failed
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-drive-unit-for-2016-refresh.83267/#post-1891415 - posted 12/28/2016, says his car is 3 months old. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-drive-unit-for-2016-refresh.83267/#post-1892533 - his replacement dies 15 miles from the service center.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p100d-drive-unit-needs-service-avoid-hard-acceleration.91000/ - delivery sometime in 2017. If you skip to the end, they said they're going to replace the DU.
 
keydiver said:
Welcome to the Tesla club. Do you know if your drive unit has ever been replaced?
Don't know yet. I understand that the Q revision with ceramic bearings appears to have solved the problem. I will be asking whether drive unit has been replaced with Q revision, and if not listening carefully for noises indicating the drive unit needs to be replaced under warranty. Since I will have around 3.5 years left on battery/drive unit warranty, it should either hold up fine or crap out before then. Other than that, not too concerned. I'm excited to get all that extra range. I will probably charge to 50% during the week to minimize battery capacity loss, more on the weekend for my typical 140 mile round trip drive to hike in the local mountains.
 
I have been charging all the time to 90% since 09/2015, with zero degradation. I still get the same 216 mile range upon completion. I really don't think you need to be as careful with the Tesla battery as we were with our Leafs.
 
Congrats on the S buddy!!! You'll love it as all the rest of us have. Funny that we're all making this transition over (Leaf, (some to Rav) and then Tesla!!!)

As for the reliability, don't listen or read those old TMC posts, they're just that...OLD. The new parts and drive units have been fixed and the "rumors" like a door handles decides to stop working is NOT a $800 repair visit but a $5 micro switch that takes about 30min to 1 hr to do.

There's a DIY section on TMC and also a HUGH aftermarket of wrecked cars where parts are plentiful and cheap in the for sale section. I bought my 2nd slave charger and did it myself for $500 (not the $2000 the SC wants) so don't worry about the reliability of the car.

These things are tanks and enjoy the ride! Come up now to a meet! :D
 
JasonA said:
As for the reliability, don't listen or read those old TMC posts, they're just that...OLD. The new parts and drive units have been fixed and the "rumors" like a door handles decides to stop working is NOT a $800 repair visit but a $5 micro switch that takes about 30min to 1 hr to do.
The door handles is definitely a concern for me as my warranty will be 2 years. After that I am on my own. Where is the DIY section? I am doubting that I have the know how to fix a door handle, even with specific instructions.

My other concern is failure of the MCU ($4,000) but not sure how frequently that happens. However,I saw a post from Ingineer that he could fix the problem much cheaper. Other than that model S, looks pretty solid.

These things are tanks and enjoy the ride! Come up now to a meet! :D
Where/when are you meeting?
 
I purchased our S on the TMC forum from a member and it had 19k miles on it in Dec, now I have 31k and have no intentions of getting the ext warranty after 50k clicks over (see my pasted pic below)..

Anyways, with the support and everything on TMC and how little goes wrong with these cars I don't feel it's worth it, plus you still have the drivetrain warranty that covers the MCU. And I've heard good things about the SC's just replacing them anyways.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/fix-your-door-that-wont-open.72466/

3b7fc553e0a9212dc1d661a6df9451ac.jpg


Anyways, next meet is listed in the socal thread
 
cwerdna said:
keydiver said:
It is also why Elon said that any Teslas made since May/June 2015 should have a 1,000,000 mile drivetrain.
Source?
keydiver said:
Do you know if your drive unit has ever been replaced? Tesla got that problem sorted out >2 years ago, which is why you hear very little about it anymore.
Maybe. I haven't had time to follow much on "TMC" anymore.

Some examples past of DUs from after May/June 2015...
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/dual-engine-shut-down-on-freeway-anyone-else.64195/page-2#post-1409450 - "front drive unit fail on our second day of ownership back in December 2015"
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement.46047/page-5#post-1302441 - Dec '15 delivery, developed noise after 1000 miles
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-s-technical-mechanical-issues.10398/page-142#post-1811020 - rear DU failed - delivered 12/2015 (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-replacement-poll.29834/page-31#post-2088063 says late Nov 2015 production)
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-p100d-model-s-failed.78593/ - took delivery in Sep 2016, verdict at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-p100d-model-s-failed.78593/page-3#post-1774189, rear DU failed
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-drive-unit-for-2016-refresh.83267/#post-1891415 - posted 12/28/2016, says his car is 3 months old. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-drive-unit-for-2016-refresh.83267/#post-1892533 - his replacement dies 15 miles from the service center.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p100d-drive-unit-needs-service-avoid-hard-acceleration.91000/ - delivery sometime in 2017. If you skip to the end, they said they're going to replace the DU.
Since keydiver never answered, I'll try. Gotta love the Tesla hype machine.

http://www.hybridcars.com/tesla-touts-million-mile-powertrain/ which alludes to a blog entry at https://web.archive.org/web/20150824204142/http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/three-dog-day from July 17, 2015
Luuudicrous Mode
While working on our goal of making the power train last a million miles, we came up with the idea for an advanced smart fuse for the battery.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/low-speed-high-pitch-whine.47379/page-2#post-1088221 and https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/low-speed-high-pitch-whine.47379/page-2#post-1088272 were two reactions.

Clearly, from the examples given of deliveries from after that day, it seems they've not met that goal yet.
 
Found out today my CPO Tesla had the drive unit replaced last year with the Q-revision, so hopefully won't run into any noise problems. Two rear door handles have been replaced, maybe less to go wrong in the future. In-service date 7/30/13 so when I get my Tesla it will have about 4 years warranty left on drive unit and battery. Definitely getting excited about delivery, which is estimated to be 4-5 weeks.
 
Stoaty said:
I am seriously thinking about buying a used Tesla Model S 85 (non-P) from Tesla.com and have a couple of questions after doing a test drive in a new P100D:

Panoramic roof - does it give extra headroom or just feel that way? Pro or con?
Pro/con on Smart Air Suspension - I have heard it is expensive to repair if it fails, may not make much difference, although abasile recommended it to me
Are earliest models (2012 or early 2013) more likely to have problems?
Would you be concerned about high mileage, and if so over what level? The battery and drive warranty is the remaining portion of 8 years, but unlimited miles.
Any other suggestions?

I am getting tired of the extra hassle with my 2011 Leaf with 30% capacity loss and even shorter range than new.

Thanks.

no response on questions but the latest round of CPO offerings from Tesla has opened avenues for me as well. The problem (as it has been most of the time) is the timing is not good for me. I am hoping Tesla will continue this trend of cut rate pricing on high mileage vehicles.

I feel that these cars have stood the test of time and most manufactured defects will have already manifested itself. These should turn out to be great deals!
 
cwerdna said:
^^^^
BTW, http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-battery-life-study-charted-by-plug-in-america/ was taken awhile ago. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101153_two-thirds-of-earliest-tesla-drive-trains-to-fail-in-60000-miles-owner-data-suggests might be worth reading, even if you ignore the 2/3rds assertions.

As a general rule, I tend to shy away from cars with below average overall reliability ratings. The chart at the bottom of http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/04/reliability-histories/index.htm is what the average problem rate is for each system for a given model year over the past 12 months period (which is what their survey covers).

To be fair, the 3 guys w/so many DU replacements were probably the most extreme, but it doesn't seem uncommon to find folks on "TMC" who've had at least 1 DU replacement. Maybe they finally got it right w/revision Q?

Tesla's lack of quality has always been on my mind but how many repeat issues have we had? I also know several with Tesla's who had their in the shop at least twice for issues early in their ownership but have been ok since. These high mileage CPO's I would think have had the bugs addressed long ago.

Another thing I noticed is a lot of shop issues are centered around the high tech coolness features the cars had that were probably rushed out. One had 3 of his 4 doors, the handles stopped responding. So kinda little stuff.

Plus I have to think that Tesla wants this program to work and a large number of issues gets around fast these days so would have to think these cars were refined before being put back out again which brings me right back to what I have contended all along.

In the movie "Revenge of the Electric Car" it was pretty apparent to me that Tesla rushed cars to market in order to satisfy their creditors, not their customers. I think this still remained well after their creditors were paid off.
 
Re: the 1 million mile drivetrain BS, gotta love how Electrek and a fanboy have made the leap below... :roll:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-motors-1-million-mile-life-model-3-the-last-car-you-buy.93382/

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-motors-1-million-mile-life-model-3-the-last-car-you-buy.93382/#post-2177917 is a good assessment of what happened. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-motors-1-million-mile-life-model-3-the-last-car-you-buy.93382/#post-2177809 is a good reaction.
 
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