Official Tesla Model S thread

But the raised floor line of the car also impacts the driver's seat. I found it to be a very feet-forward sitting position, which I don't really find that comfortable. Reminiscent of sporty Jaguar saloons. I prefer a more upright sitting position, and sticking batteries under the driver's feet doesn't help accomplish that.

My suggestion would be to introduce the higher capacity cells by maintaining the same battery capacity, but creating scallops in the battery pack for all passengers to put their feet (like they do in most other floor-pan-battery EVs), plus more possible adjustments for the driver. They could then drop the height of the back seats without compromising rear passengers leg room.

Tesla are at liberty to PM me to send a cheque for this continuous improvement suggestion, if they might like..

apvbguy said:

I have had 6ft + people back there and there wasn't any complaints

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Why put flies in your ointment? Americans are polite. They tell positive things only and keep the negative stuff for themselves. Ask them, or just sit there yourself.

I specifically sit in the back seats of every car I check out just to see what my passengers will be experiencing. This is what I experienced when I finally got to sit in Tesla S for the first time. Nothing more, nothing less. And I was very surprised Elon allowed it in this "fine" automobile. And, yes, I do see it as a flaw, considering this is a mid-size.

Not to mention the fact I have no such problem sitting in the back of my Leaf or even Spark EV.

ILETRIC said:

apvbguy said:

I have had 6ft + people back there and there wasn't any complaints

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Why put flies in your ointment? Americans are polite. They tell positive things only and keep the negative stuff for themselves. Ask them, or just sit there yourself.

I specifically sit in the back seats of every car I check out just to see what my passengers will be experiencing. This is what I experienced when I finally got to sit in Tesla S for the first time. Nothing more, nothing less. And I was very surprised Elon allowed it in this "fine" automobile. And, yes, I do see it as a flaw, considering this is a mid-size.

Not to mention the fact I have no such problem sitting in the back of my Leaf or even Spark EV.

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+1 for the bolded sentence. I'm 6'0" with a 34" inseam (i.e. all legs), and although I'll probably never have to ride back there I have lots of tall friends who might, so it's always useful to check out rear seat head and leg room. For instance, I found that the Spark had plenty of F/R headroom, but with the front seat all the way back (where I needed it, and it was juuuust enough), the rear leg room was totally inadequate. Even with my knees splayed out they were pushing hard against the back of the seat, and foot room was also cramped. I wouldn't want to ride behind someone my size for more than about 15 minutes in that car, which is why I consider it best suited to two adults and two pre-teens.

cwerdna said:

Later on he points to http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/model-s/results.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I downloaded the tab separated data near the bottom. There were 264 entries. For the motor_swapped field, there were 42 with YES (via the simple COUNTIF function after I imported it into Excel). That equals 15.9%.
Either number is pretty horrific. It'll be very interesting to see what happens when more and more Model S warranties expire.
...

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I tend to agree with cwerdna on this. This is a worryingly high %. Especially if not limited to the low VINs.
I was at Tom Saxton's "TMC Connect" talk in Monterey and not much of fuss was made by anyone in the audience when he showed these numbers. There was much more interest in his battery degradation data.
I did my own informal poll of asking the owners at my lunch table and at breaks if they had a drive unit replaced. 0% out of 11 owners (weak stats I know). There is a poll on the Tesla forum for drive unit replacement that's currently at 83% replacement of at least one drivetrain. Zero replacements isn't an option though so that might skew things.
Since I first heard of the "milling sound" leading to drive unit failure issue, I've been hyper sensitive to it and was certain I had the noise starting about 4 mos ago. Took the car in for annual service; they did the tire rotation and my "milling sound" was gone. Oh well, I'll keep listening for it (the car is damn quiet with Pink Floyd turned off).
BTW, my battery degradation after 15 mos and 14k mi is in line with Saxton's data: about 2.5% so far. My most recent 100% charge was 263 mi. Down from 270mi 15 mos ago.

ILETRIC said:

I specifically sit in the back seats of every car I check out

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.... I do likewise, after adjusting the driver's seat to my position, I try to sit 'behind myself', so to speak. That's both for me and the future passenger, because if I were to have to push my seat forward to give them the minimum accommodate, then I'd have to consider that.

It's not a deal-breaker, I'd just have to consider it. I did have one car like that, but I decided it was an auto with a good pedal layout and adjustable steering, so I was able to move a little forward if essential, which would not have been practical with a manual car. As it happened, it did happen like that - once in the whole of my ownership of it! Sometimes we worry about possible scenarios with cars for which we rarely, if ever, find ourselves. Folks in UK despise cars without rear folding seats, one reason that added to the Fluence ZE's flop. But ask how many times people actually call on that function and it is so rare that they are kidding themselves they 'need' that.

I digress, because the Model S' problem in the back isn't knee room*, it's headroom! (*Personally, I find that screen thingy interferes with my knee-room as a driver too. I like to have room to move both my legs and feet apart, else I end up with cramps on a long run.)

I wouldn't buy a car where the back seat (s) didn't fold down. Once I rented an Impala, it was a fairly nice car, but the seats didn't fold down and skis wouldn't fit. We had to bungee the trunk lid. I remember thinking why would anyone omit such an obvious trivial feature. Like Tesla leaving off the coat hooks. Cmon man!

I love the fact that in the current market for cars, people can be picky about the EV they want!

LTLFTcomposite said:

I wouldn't buy a car where the back seat (s) didn't fold down. Once I rented an Impala, it was a fairly nice car, but the seats didn't fold down and skis wouldn't fit. We had to bungee the trunk lid. I remember thinking why would anyone omit such an obvious trivial feature. Like Tesla leaving off the coat hooks. Cmon man!

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what causes you to think that the rear seats in the model s do not fold?
as for the coat hooks, if you have a model S with the pano rook you can by some S hooks and have your coat hooks. I do like being able to drive around JAX in my tesla without regards for running out of juice.

Zythryn said:

I love the fact that in the current market for cars, people can be picky about the EV they want!

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hear, hear!

apvbguy said:

what causes you to think that the rear seats in the model s do not fold?

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What causes you to think that I thought that?

My '98 Maxima had an interesting feature. We couldn't fold the back seats - but the rear middle could be folded down to get a small hole in the seat to carry skis. That also let 4 people ride in the car - with skis.

evnow said:

My '98 Maxima had an interesting feature. We couldn't fold the back seats - but the rear middle could be folded down to get a small hole in the seat to carry skis. That also let 4 people ride in the car - with skis.

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A number of cars that are non-hybrids have non-folding rear seats (e.g. Acura TL). Sometimes it's because they wanted to maintain/improve structural rigidity.

Some hybrid sedans have no folding rear seats (e.g. Altima Hybrid and current Accord Hybrid) due to the big HV battery in thee way or only a small pass thru (e.g. Camry Hybrid).

sparky said:

cwerdna said:

Later on he points to http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/model-s/results.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I downloaded the tab separated data near the bottom. There were 264 entries. For the motor_swapped field, there were 42 with YES (via the simple COUNTIF function after I imported it into Excel). That equals 15.9%.
Either number is pretty horrific. It'll be very interesting to see what happens when more and more Model S warranties expire.
...

Click to expand...

I tend to agree with cwerdna on this. This is a worryingly high %. Especially if not limited to the low VINs.
I was at Tom Saxton's "TMC Connect" talk in Monterey and not much of fuss was made by anyone in the audience when he showed these numbers. There was much more interest in his battery degradation data.
I did my own informal poll of asking the owners at my lunch table and at breaks if they had a drive unit replaced. 0% out of 11 owners (weak stats I know). There is a poll on the Tesla forum for drive unit replacement that's currently at 83% replacement of at least one drivetrain. Zero replacements isn't an option though so that might skew things.
Since I first heard of the "milling sound" leading to drive unit failure issue, I've been hyper sensitive to it and was certain I had the noise starting about 4 mos ago. Took the car in for annual service; they did the tire rotation and my "milling sound" was gone. Oh well, I'll keep listening for it (the car is damn quiet with Pink Floyd turned off).
BTW, my battery degradation after 15 mos and 14k mi is in line with Saxton's data: about 2.5% so far. My most recent 100% charge was 263 mi. Down from 270mi 15 mos ago.

Click to expand...

See this thread over on the Tesla forums. Interesting info "straight from the horses mouth."

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/info-tesla-refuel-2014-event-laguna-seca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Drive train issues

* The slow speed 'clunk' is from slop in the drive train, and especially from the gearbox. Won't generally cause mechanical problems, but Tesla is replacing drivetrains with this problem.
* High pitched clicking may be from the axle splines and needs fixing immediately - might just need greasing.

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Panasonic just announced their participation in the Gigafactory!

This, in my mind, was the biggest hurdle to the Model 3, happy happy joy joy!
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Deals/Panasonic-Tesla-agree-to-partnership-for-US-car-battery-plant" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not directly relevant to the Model S, but this seemed the best place to put this. Via GCR:

"Tesla CEO Elon Musk Makes It Big: Will Appear On 'The Simpsons' As Himself"

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093570_tesla-ceo-elon-musk-makes-it-big-will-appear-on-the-simpsons-as-himself" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the article:

"Far from a brief cameo, the Paypal, Tesla and SpaceX billionaire will apparently star in the episode, bankrupting The Simpsons' own billionaire character, 104-year old nuclear plant owner Mr Burns."

To which news there is only one possible response: http://postcron.com/es/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/MR-BURNS-EXCELLENT-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edmunds long-term wrap up:
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of particular interest to many might be the "Maintenance & Repairs" section...

Mercedes and Porsche are immune to crosswinds? That's amazing, maybe I'll get one as a storm shelter.

cwerdna said:

Edmunds long-term wrap up:
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of particular interest to many might be the "Maintenance & Repairs" section...

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Nice article. I think the maintenance and summary parts are interesting enough to post here:

Edmunds said:

Maintenance & Repairs

Regular Maintenance:
Routine service is due on the Model S every 12,500 miles or 12 months, according to the owner's manual. Tires should be rotated every 6,000 miles.

Service Campaigns:
We expected some hiccups from the Model S. Not only was the car an all-new display of emerging technology, but it was also Tesla's first shot at building a car from the ground up. Our car amassed quite the repair résumé during the last 17 months.

Some notes about this list: 1) It includes everything beyond normal maintenance; 2) we had an early production car, so several of these issues were fixed as running changes on later production models; 3) many of the repairs were performed during the same visit; 4) only two visits required more than an overnight stay.

Code:

Problem                                                  Repair                                               Cost
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suspicious noise                                         Replace first drive unit                             Warranty
Car died roadside                                        Replace second drive unit                            Warranty
Suspicious noise                                         Replace third drive unit and ride height sensor      Warranty
Car died roadside                                        Replace main battery                                 Warranty
Touchscreen froze                                        Replace main display screen                          Warranty
Optional 21-inch rear tires worn to cords prematurely    Replace rear tires and fix alignment                 Warranty
Car died roadside                                        Replace 12-volt battery and cables                   Warranty
Steering wheel creak                                     Shim and torque sub-frame bolts                      Warranty
Odd noise from undercarriage                             Rerouted logic harnesses per TSB                     Warranty
Sunroof will not work                                    Replace broken sunroof deflector                     Warranty
Driver door opens automatically                          Replace driver door handle mechanism                 Warranty
Recall issued                                            Battery shield kit installed                         Warranty
TSB issued                                               Inspect joints for all lower control arm washers     Warranty
TSB issued                                               Update firmware to version 5.8.4                     Warranty
TSB issued                                               Update firmware to version 5.11                      Warranty
TSB issued                                               Replace front bumper carrier bolts                   Warranty
TSB issued                                               Install rear upper camber bolts                      Warranty
TSB issued                                               Replace side motor mount                             Warranty
TSB issued                                               Replace front floor mats, install rear floor mats    Warranty
Left radiator shutter faulty                             Replace center louvers                               Warranty
Lug nuts beginning to swell                              Replace all 20 lug nuts                              Warranty
Cracked vanity mirror hinge                              Replace cracked vanity mirror hinge                  Goodwill
Humming noise at start-up                                Install AC compressor NVH cover                      Goodwill
Vanity mirror hinge cracked                              Replace missing charge cord trim piece               Goodwill
Touchscreen froze                                        Manual reset (required 9 times during test)          None
Windows lowered automatically                            Unresolved, happened twice                           None
TPMS confused                                            Unresolved, happened once                            None
Condensation in taillight                                Unresolved prior to sale                             None

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And the summary:

Edmunds said:

Summing Up

Pros: Thrilling performance, spacious and comfortable cabin, unmatched electric range, easy-to-use driver interface, plenty of cargo space, free national supercharger network, no routine maintenance costs, strong resale value.

Cons: Extensive list of repairs necessary, interior amenities don't match other luxury sedans in its price range, latest active safety systems not available, needs at least a Level 2 charger to make it useful as a daily driver.

Bottom Line: The Model S is a fast, comfortable and technologically brilliant luxury sedan, but numerous problems with its touchscreen, tires and drivetrain make it hard to recommend.

Code:

Total Body Repair Costs:               None
Total Routine Maintenance Costs:       None (over 17 months)
Additional Maintenance Costs:          $1,907 for 5 new tires, mounted and balanced
Warranty Repairs:                      See previous list, "Warranty"
Non-Warranty Repairs:                  See previous list, "Goodwill"
Scheduled Dealer Visits:               2
Unscheduled Dealer Visits:             7
Days Out of Service:                   9
Breakdowns Stranding Driver:           1
 
Best Observed Range:                   230.4 miles
Best Projected Range:                  264.2 mpg
Best Average Energy:                   23.8 kWh/100 miles
Worst Average Energy:                  34.4 kWh/100 miles
Distance Powered by Superchargers:     11,693 miles
Distance Powered by other chargers:    18,558 miles
 
True Market Value at service end:      Not available
What it Sold for:                      $83,000
Depreciation:                          $20,770 (20% of paid price)
Final Odometer Reading:                30,251 miles

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I wonder who would purchase a sports car from Edmunds after they had put 30,000 miles on it. I can only imagine it was ridden hard and put away wet virtually every time it was taken out.

FYI, I saw this very well written (and IMHO accurate) post from Pollux on the subject of drive unit and battery replacements. I strongly suspect his/her experience reflects the majority of reported cases. Well worth reading for any doubters.

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/edmunds-experience-scares-me#comment-430647" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GeekEV said:

FYI, I saw this very well written (and IMHO accurate) post from Pollux on the subject of drive unit and battery replacements. I strongly suspect his/her experience reflects the majority of reported cases. Well worth reading for any doubters.

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/edmunds-experience-scares-me#comment-430647" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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eh!!?!?

I have become a doubter of the Model S's reliability. This article confirms my doubt. In what way is it worth reading?