Why I canceled my Leaf order today. :-(

[Pipcecil]

@aqn actually there are 2 level 3 DC chargers here in texas, one in houston and one in dallas. The reason eVgo halted/slowed their installation is waiting for the UL certification. While its not techincally important the cities they are installing these devices in require UL certification for codes because they are using such high voltage business connections. UL certification is expected by mid July, so once they are certified, I expect them to build them alot faster.

I am sorry @dallasmay that you had to cancel your LEAF. I did have the same discussion with my wife as well regarding the level 3 CHAdeMO. This is what our conculsion came down to: Money.

If your a company like eVgo you need to make a profit. If the SAE goes with a different standard, this is the timeline: choose a the new standard: december (that is if they stay on schedule which they have NOT), make detailed engineering plans (1 year), make prototype (1 year), make working mass production (1 year), pass out specs and install in next gen cars (1 year). The problem with SAE forcing CHAdeMO out of the market is availability. HDDVD & Blu Ray both had systems out that could use them, same with VHS and beta max, etc. SAE will come out with a standard but there will be none on the market, all the while CHAdeMO will be standard of the LEAF and on the i-MiEV. eVgo and other companies want to make money, why switch to a standard that has no one using it??? It will take the standard to be made AND cars to be made with them (GM doesn't need fast charging and Ford is backing level 2 with a faster charger, 6.6 kw), which will take GM, Ford and Chrysler to actually build cars and make them with the port. Then, they will have to flood the market to actually have more vehicles with the new standard than LEAFs, i-MiEV, and other future vehicles on the road that have CHAdeMO.

In my opinion, this won't happen anytime soon. Even Tesla may put in a CHAdeMO just because the chargers will be available for the Model S, the SAE standard won't be ready at all. At a certain point, it may become mute if there are too many CHAdeMO charging stations out there. Even the gov is backing CHAdeMO because they want to serve the EV population, which uses this port

After walking through this, we decided CHAdeMO was a safe bet.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I would not recommend canceling a LEAF order unless you are really, really sure. It won't cost you anything to cancel later.

Clearly. I'm sitting here in Florida with no warm fuzzies about getting the car any time soon and figure I'm out maybe a buck in lost interest on the reservation fee. If this drags out another year or two, it could add up to $2 or $3. Somehow I'll find a way to absorb that financial hit.

 

[thankyouOB]

overwritten and overwrought. I can hear the violins.

the MitsubishiE relies on L3 with its smaller battery.
the Leaf does not.
Would L3 be a plus? Sure.
But no car is marketed to everyone.
They all have niches.

 

[SanDust]

I believe that this is a major error on the side of SAE. Not because I think CHAdeMO is a superior standard to whatever it is they are looking into, but because it is picking a fight for no apparent reason. It's a standards war. It's Beta vs. VHS. Windows vs. Mac. HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray. AIM vs. Yahoo vs. MSN. Someone is going to win. A lot of people are going to loose.

I don't think your examples are good ones. They're all examples of two competing proprietary standards. The difference between CHAdeMO and the SAE standard is between a proprietary standard and an open standard arrived at through a transparent process. The better analogy would be between Sony Memory Sticks and CompactFlash or SD cards. Or between proprietary wireless standards and WiFi. We can see how those all worked out. Yes open standards take longer but they invariably deliver a superior standard devoid of patent claims and other legal nonsense. The benefits are especially compelling since the indications are that there will be one standard for both the EU and NA.

I have a CHAdeMo charger but for the future of the EV industry an open standard is far better. As others have mentioned, no doubt when the SAE standard is adopted there will be adapters for CHAdeMO if there is sufficient demand.

Finally, given that Nissan has said that repeatedly charging using DC charging will take a toll on the battery, I question the wisdom of relying on DC charging for daily use. As mentioned by others, it's fair to say that for many people -- such as those who need DC charging -- a Leaf is simply not going to work as the only vehicle.

 

[johnr]

So, dallasmay, why exactly did you cancel your order?? Sorry, I really don't get what you're saying. For those few times you need to go farther than 100 miles, why not just rent a car? Or is it just because you're frustrated with the SAE and CHAdeMO? That's no reason to deny yourself the pleasure of being among the first to say goodbye to gasoline.

 

[Phoenix]

Dallasmay: Sounds like from this thread there are folks in your DFW area that have ICE cars sitting in their garages while they prefer to use their second-car Leaf as much as possible. You could set up a network to share ICE-cars when needed for those longer trips. Check out the website getaround.com based on the west coast that has a car-share model you could follow out where you are.

 

[jimcmorr]

snip..
I have a CHAdeMo charger but for the future of the EV industry an open standard is far better. As others have mentioned, no doubt when the SAE standard is adopted there will be adapters for CHAdeMO if there is sufficient demand.

You have a CHAdeMO charger? In your house? Or your business has one? Is it available for use by the EV charging public?

Finally, given that Nissan has said that repeatedly charging using DC charging will take a toll on the battery, I question the wisdom of relying on DC charging for daily use. As mentioned by others, it's fair to say that for many people -- such as those who need DC charging -- a Leaf is simply not going to work as the only vehicle.

We have repeatedly heard that the DC charging can be used up to 6 times a day without harming the pack. Those folks in Denmark (?) used the DC charger twenty times in 24 hours on their ~780 mile trip!

 

[evnow]

The reason I am writing this is that I hope someone at Nissan and the SAE reads it. So, to the person at one of these two organizations that has a say in the matter, I ask that you please reconcile your differences. I was willing to take some big risks with purchasing an all electric car and helping you market it through word of mouth to all of my friends and family, but your politics ruined it for me. And if you are not careful, you are going to ruin the whole market as well.

Your response in cancelling leaf because chademo is not a SAE standard is perhaps a first. GM, which chairs SAE fast charging committee, was hoping for exactly this kind of response. Sad to see people falling into this kind of a trap.

BTW, if you are in doubt (because of chademo, battery life, better cars in the future etc etc), the best option now is to lease. Atleast that's what I thought - so I leased.

 

[planet4ever]

We have repeatedly heard that the DC charging can be used up to 6 times a day without harming the pack.

We have repeatedly heard one poster here quoting one remark he heard a Nissan official make. I don't believe it.

Ray

 

[LEAFfan]

L-3 seems pretty bad for battery longevity and it seems clear that it should be used very rarely. The Leaf is a great commuter car, not so good for long trips--even if there were plenty of L3 chargers, and even if they all worked all the time, and even if they never had wait times or lines you would have to stop for 30 minutes every hour to charge--that would get old fast [L-3 is only 80% and at freeway speed that will get spent in an hour].

Your evidence that QC is bad for battery longevity? The stop would be more like 15-20 mins. since the battery pack wouldn't be empty and your one hour driving would be at 70. I'll be going 55-60 so it will be more like an hour and a half which is a good time for a break to stretch and use the restroom. You can use yours just for commuting, but it will be my Primary car very soon. CA here I come! :mrgreen:

 

[tps]

SAE will come out with a standard but there will be none on the market, all the while CHAdeMO will be standard of the LEAF and on the i-MiEV. eVgo and other companies want to make money, why switch to a standard that has no one using it??? It will take the standard to be made AND cars to be made with them (GM doesn't need fast charging and Ford is backing level 2 with a faster charger, 6.6 kw), which will take GM, Ford and Chrysler to actually build cars and make them with the port.

Look at the back of a tower computer, monitor, etc. Do you see a NEMA 5-15P inlet (this is the US connector standard)? No, it has an IEC C14 inlet (a European standard). Just because a US standard exists doesn't mean that another standard won't become the defacto standard in the US for certain applications.

 

[tps]

your politics ruined it for me. And if you are not careful, you are going to ruin the whole market as well.

Exactly what GM, a major backer of SAE, would like to happen. Your letter is music to their ears! They'd probably feel a lot better if this maverick guy Ghosn and his companies weren't trying to change the auto manufacturing business.

 

[scottysize]

You should have stayed with it and leased it as I did. If the SAE changes the standards, it wouldn't matter because the car isn't yours. Early adopters pay the price sometimes, IE: Betamax - VHS, Laser Disk - CD, Blue Ray - HD, but remember that all of those issues were solved by consumers. Consumers bought VHS because the tapes held more recording hours. Laser Disks were way too big, and everyone had a PS3, so Blue Ray won that battle too. Also, your missing one important ingredient: all of those devices were different from each other, but the Volt and Leaf BOTH use the same exact charger. There's no difference. You should have stayed, but I am sure that someone will enjoy your leaf here in the metroplex.

 

[rainnw]

....

Do you know why charging 6 times in a day is bad on battery longevity?

Because, you are charging 6 times in a day where a typical user would be using 1 or less.

Its about the CYCLES, and not how fast you are charging*

*assuming Nissan engineers are not idiots and realize that charging at higher rates than what the battery pack supports can damage batteries

 

[ERG4ALL]

Regarding the standards war, I'm reminded of the movie "Tucker" and how GM worked to derail the company. However, Dallasmay take heart. Carlos Ghosn recently announced that we will see batteries with twice the capacity on the market "in four or five years". Mr. Ghosn is nobody's fool. If he says four or five years, I would believe that one of two things will happen. Either the new batteries come out sooner, or they come out in four or five years with capacities greater than double todays batteries.